Hakuho, 27 Yusho and Counting

[krindel 671]

I think the main issue with questions regarding Hakuho's prospects is that there doesn't seem to be anyone at the moment who looks like he would seriously challenge him on a steady basis. Assuming he doesn't go into a nosedive of the type Asashosakari describes, he has the margin to lose some strength and still keep grabbing at least some yushos.

Yusho number 33 is still quite far away, so too early to even begin making estimates, but I get a feeling that Hakuho might manage to retire when he decides, without having been outmatched or overtaken by the next big thing...

[Asashosakari 19,306]

Are you sure about those figures for Kitanoumi between 1983.01 & 1984.07? He only won one yusho (1984 Natsu) and only completed 3 entire basho in that time.

Oops, thanks for catching that. That was supposed to be 1980.01 to 1981.07.

[Treblemaker 254]

In fact, can see a scenario ca. 2016/17 where both HF and Hak have retired due to falling numbers, and there's no one to fill the Yokozuna position.

You don't think Kisenosato, after this week's performance, has a shot to fill the position?

Listen, he was my choice for The Next Japanese Big One years ago when he would routinely take Asa for a clinic. He still is, but it's now years later, he's never done better than 13-2, and still shows great potential, but I don't exactly know what it is, but given a chance to determine his own destiny, he somehow manages to let it slip. Frankly, he became an Ozeki legitimately, even considering the circumstances. But to go one step further, he's got to win The Big One and either make it two, or at least be a good runner-up, with a 14-1 record. Somehow, I don't see it happening. He really doesn't have a Magic Bag filled with different moves, he's not fast, and not particularly strong in the Asa/Baruto/Hakuho mold. He's all about straight-forward sumo. And mentally, he sometimes cripples himself.

So, unless something changes over the next year, I'd say his chances are done. And I think he's been better in other bashos even when he had worse records.

Also don't see a Native Yok anytime within the next 2-3 years, if longer.

Does anyone forseen that Harumafuji will became a yokozuna 1,5 or 2 years ago? I guess noone... So you can never say that there will be such a long period till the next yokozuna. Maybe one of the ozeki can make it up or we see another rikishi who rise fast through the ranks (jsut remember how fast Asa and Hak rose).

We never know.

And by the way: neither was Wakanohana III a mediocre yokozuna nor was Harumafuji. Both were/are great skilled rikishi with a broad spectrum of techniques. Both deserved to be yokozunas. I guess it is just the fact that in the last decade(!) we get used to see two uber-dai-yokozunas...

Well, I had a hunch with the old Ama. But no, I never would have put money on him years ago. But here the argument is about a Japanese Yokozuna. I just don't see a good, solid candidate from Japan in the immediate future.

[Akinomaki 40,413]

(former) Asashoryu comments: congratulations to the yusho. Including the time as sole yokozuna, and now that my junior buddy (otouto-bun) Harumafuji has become yokozuna, I think that as two yokozuna you fair and square have led the sumo world. But while at last having caught up with the number of yusho, it's a 100 years early for you to think you have caught up with the great me (idai naru watashi).

Can I see the link for that - assuming you saw it online? Very interesting. Just makes me miss Asa and what he brought to the sport, good and bad.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2013/05/27/kiji/K20130527005885330.html

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

Trivia addition to this elderly thread which is broadly concerned with Hakuho's hunt for records:

My insane and otherworldly pattern recognition skills just made me aware that Hakuho must hold the record for consecutive wins on a specific basho day. From July 2005 til November 2012 he won all his Day 3 bouts (with one interruption due to absence).

That's as pointless a stat as they come, but someone with advanced query abilities might look into the validity of my proposition.

[Kuroyama 715]

That's as pointless a stat as they come,

Hey, there are entire sporting leagues that veritably thrive on pointless statistics! *cough*baseball*cough*

[wanderer 159]

Record 33 yusho is an incredible feat for anyone, and it may be more to do with circumstances (or fate as is known in asia) than one's ability. Having said this I would like to share my thoughts about Hakuho's chances.

Well, Mongolian wrestlers are said to peak at or around age 28 if it has anything to do with sumo. Harumafuji might be a good example of when Mongolian wrestlers peak, nobody thought he would be able to even win a single yusho. My guess is that Hakuho's physique, mind, spirit, and wisdom are converging to a peak condition nowadays. It might take just one wrong step to get him crippled, but my bet is that he will be able to avoid any major mishaps for sometime coming, because he can afford to do so. Collecting from my experience in Mongolian wrestling, and his father's style, I would declare that Hakuho has been coasting at or around 70% of his abilities. He hasn't done tooth and nail last resort type fighting yet. Imagine him doing stunts like Asashoryu, but only 10% bigger and stronger. Hakuho is totally able to wreck havoc like Asashoryu if he wants to. The problem is he hasn't been tested ever at this level. Yes, he had epic battles with both Asa and Haru, but those were in times when his position was very secure.

It is entirely possible that Hakuho may charge full throttle ahead, all cylinders firing for the last leg of his career, wreck havoc and secure the record. Or he may just play it safe, showing respect to Japanese public, stopping just short of the record.

Kisenosato has been around for quite sometime, so is Hakuho. I don't expect groundshifting changes in their parity. Yes, I still do believe that Kisenosato will one day be Yokozuna. Baruto was within a reach but now he is gone. Suddenly, Hakuho has no real threat for foreseeable future.

There are some hungry wolves showing up on the horizon though. Myogiryu, Ikioi, and Okinoumi seem to be different batch than the rest based on their technique and built. However, there is one that really looks different and that is non other than Endou. So my bet is that Hakuho's campaign to 33 may depend more on how quickly Endou rises up the ranks and how well he takes care of his body. He is definitely different.

Edited September 20, 2013 by wanderer

[bettega 431]

What you saying is that Hakuhou depends only on himself to get the 33 basho mark, right? If he has the will he'll get the record (unless some injury).

Myogiryu, Ikioi, Okinoum, Endou, Osunaarashi and Terunofuji seems to be the guys to watch

[Andreas21 184]

Myogiryu, Ikioi, Okinoum, Endou, Osunaarashi and Terunofuji seems to be the guys to watch

Okinoumi can safely be removed from the list. He is almost as old as Hakuho, and it would be a great achievement for him ever to reach Sekiwake.

But also the other guys are not so young anymore. Hakuho had two Yun-Yusho before the age of 20, and by 22 he started regular Yushos.

[krindel 671]

Myogiryu, Ikioi, Okinoum, Endou, Osunaarashi and Terunofuji seems to be the guys to watch

Okinoumi can safely be removed from the list. He is almost as old as Hakuho, and it would be a great achievement for him ever to reach Sekiwake.

But also the other guys are not so young anymore. Hakuho had two Yun-Yusho before the age of 20, and by 22 he started regular Yushos.

Sure, but I don't think anyone is holding their breath for a second coming of Hakuho... Someone who can challenge him enough to get a couple of yusho per year consistently would be more than enough.

Although I'll agree that neither Ikioi or Okinoumi seem to have that potential. As for the others, we can only hope :-)

[Musashoryu 3]

A year or two ago I would have said he is on his way to 34 at least....the only thing that can stop his progression is injury and the older you get the more prone to them. As for sumo being boring because one Yokozuna dominates I say just the opposite, it is a privelege to watch one of the greats in action.

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

Random comparison:

Hakuho vs. Taiho – Yushoage
Yusho #	Hakuho	Taiho
1st	21y 2m	20y 5m
5th	22y 8m	21y 8m
10th	24y 0m	22y 10m
15th	25y 4m	24y 6m
20th	26y 6m	26y 0m
25th	28y 2m	27y 0m
27th	28y 6m	28y 4m

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

Shiro or moderators:

Update of the thread title possible?

Thx.

Moderator Notice

done

Edited September 29, 2013 by Jakusotsu

[bettega 431]

A year or two ago I would have said he is on his way to 34 at least....the only thing that can stop his progression is injury and the older you get the more prone to them. As for sumo being boring because one Yokozuna dominates I say just the opposite, it is a privelege to watch one of the greats in action.

Yes, we're very lucky. Some years from now we'll be saying "IN MY TIME we had Hakuho, a real Yokozuna, not these Ozeki being called Yoks. Hak knowed EVERY kimarite and used them all, all the time!"

[Tsubame 361]

these Ozeki being called Yoks

If I remember correct, is this not exactly how the rank was created?! Yokozuna... just a special kind of ozeki.

Regarding Hakuho, I wonder when someone come up with Hakuho = sumo kami ;-)

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

A year or two ago I would have said he is on his way to 34 at least....the only thing that can stop his progression is injury and the older you get the more prone to them. As for sumo being boring because one Yokozuna dominates I say just the opposite, it is a privelege to watch one of the greats in action.

Yes, we're very lucky. Some years from now we'll be saying "IN MY TIME we had Hakuho, a real Yokozuna, not these Ozeki being called Yoks. Hak knowed EVERY kimarite and used them all, all the time!"

I will always refer accordingly to Asashoryu, a guy who would have used three winning techniques at the same time in any bout, if it was possible. In comparison Hakuho is just the Tottari Weasel.

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

A year or two ago I would have said he is on his way to 34 at least....the only thing that can stop his progression is injury and the older you get the more prone to them. As for sumo being boring because one Yokozuna dominates I say just the opposite, it is a privelege to watch one of the greats in action.

Yes, we're very lucky. Some years from now we'll be saying "IN MY TIME we had Hakuho, a real Yokozuna, not these Ozeki being called Yoks. Hak knowed EVERY kimarite and used them all, all the time!"

I will always refer accordingly to Asashoryu, a guy who would have used three winning techniques at the same time in any bout, if it was possible. In comparison Hakuho is just the Tottari Weasel.

'Tottari Weasel'? :-O

A name that was brought up a couple of years ago (I think over at ST by either user That-Satsu-Guy or Aware of Vacuity). It was in a discussion about Hakuho's supposed squeaky whiteness in contrast to Asashoryu's Black Yokozunahood. I could really relate to the idea behind it. While Asashoryu used to be generally chaotically brutal, Hakuho's resorting to potentially damaging arm techniques seemed comparatively hidden while systematic. Of course the man has changed since then. Nevertheless, the name stuck.

[krindel 671]

A bit off topic, but since it was mentioned, it is true that Asashoryu is leading the list of Yokozuna in kimarite used in Makuuchi :-).

Yokozuna	Kimarite used in Makuuchi
Asashoryu	42
Haguroyama	41
Tochinishiki	40
Tamanishiki	40
Wakanohana I	39
Chiyonofuji	37
Mienoumi	36
Hakuho	34
Harumafuji	33
Musashiyama	33
Futabayama	32
Minanogawa	31
Akinoumi	30
Wakanohana III	29
Asashio	29
Yoshibayama	29
Maedayama	29
Takanohana	28
Tamanoumi	28
Tochinoumi	28
Chiyonoyama	28
Taiho	27
Kagamisato	27
Azumafuji	27
Terukuni	27
Wajima	26
Kotozakura	26
Sadanoyama	26
Kashiwado	26
Onokuni	25
Hokutoumi	25
Takanosato	25
Kitanofuji	25
Musashimaru	24
Asahifuji	24
Wakanohana II	21
Kitanoumi	21
Akebono	20
Futahaguro	11

I guess its one of the few statistic categories where Hak is NOT at the very top of the lists (although he is still in the top 10)

Edit: Although it is interesting to note how many Dai Yokozuna are crowding the last 10 spots too

Edited September 29, 2013 by krindel

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

[booming voice]It's because a REAL Yokozuna only needs yorikiri![/booming voice]

[Senkoho 552]

even more off topic: what about non-yokozuna(e) with the most kimarite used throughout their careers? (i don't think it's possible to make a Database query for that, is it?)

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

I wanted to say that Mainoumi might be a good starting point, but surprisingly he just used only 34 different winning techniques.

On second thought, this is not surprising at all, as all power techniques are out of the question.

It is easy to check for individuals BTW, because of the DB's cool "bouts by kimarite" link feature on every rikishi's page. I am at a loss, though, how you could query that (without an SQL-Injection attack, that is...).

Edited September 29, 2013 by yorikiried by fate

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

I wanted to say that Mainoumi might be a good starting point, but surprisingly he just used only 34 different winning techniques.

Let's stay fair: It was intended to read "only".

[Senkoho 552]

In the current makuuchi lineup, Aminishiki is the leader with 42 kimarite (or should I say kimarite + other ways of winning a bout) used in his entire career.

Takanoyama equalizes that achievement - 42 kimarite as well.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Senkoho

[Asashosakari 19,306]

Limited to sekitori basho only and since 1956.03 (juryo kimarite are mostly incomplete before that), minus fusensho/hansoku/draws but with the other winning non-techniques and with playoff bouts included (query fed into some Excel magic):

45 Kyokushuzan

43 Asashoryu

40 Aminishiki

40 Chiyonofuji

39 Harumafuji

38 Asasekiryu

38 Daimonji

37 Futagodake

36 Terao

36 Kiyonomori

After the top 10 the list gets pretty unwieldy (already 9 more rikishi at 35 kimarite alone), so I'll refrain from posting more.

[Senkoho 552]

Thanks a lot!