Osunaarashi and Shinto Rituals (split from various topics)

[dingo 1,212]

Taiho, on whose birthday the juryo promotion of Oosunaarashi was announced, had told him to do 500 shiko stampings (he only manages to do 300 so far) and 1000 times teppou thrusting and also suri-ashi. He pledges to do severe keiko, to rise to yokozuna (he won't be able to become one anyway, as his faith should forbid him to do the shinto rituals connected with the rank, dohyo-iri at shrines and the shrine visits with praying on that and other occasions).

Interesting, it's never occurred to me to think about his future on the dohyo from that angle. I suppose strictly takes you are correct, which would be a pity. I wonder if there has ever been a yokozuna candidate who has refused promotion? Is that even possible? I suppose such a candidate would never even be offered promotion if his reply was known beforehand...

Maybe there's a way to find a reconciliatory "loophole" so to say in Oosunaarashi's case, either from his side or from sumo's side?

[krindel 671]

Taiho, on whose birthday the juryo promotion of Oosunaarashi was announced, had told him to do 500 shiko stampings (he only manages to do 300 so far) and 1000 times teppou thrusting and also suri-ashi. He pledges to do severe keiko, to rise to yokozuna (he won't be able to become one anyway, as his faith should forbid him to do the shinto rituals connected with the rank, dohyo-iri at shrines and the shrine visits with praying on that and other occasions).

Interesting, it's never occurred to me to think about his future on the dohyo from that angle. I suppose strictly takes you are correct, which would be a pity. I wonder if there has ever been a yokozuna candidate who has refused promotion? Is that even possible? I suppose such a candidate would never even be offered promotion if his reply was known beforehand...

Maybe there's a way to find a reconciliatory "loophole" so to say in Oosunaarashi's case, either from his side or from sumo's side?

I don't know him personally, but I seriously doubt that if he reaches that milestone his faith would present such a problem. After all, people of all faiths participate in rituals of other religions as part of their social and proffessional lives all the time (weddings, season openings, christmas parties etc). I really doubt that it would be so much of an issue to find a compromise, assuming, of course, he gets there.

[Benevolance 2,484]

And considering that his stated goal is yokozuna...I can't imagine that wrinkle hasn't occurred to him yet.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Will Osunaarashi be able to do all the Shinto stuff when he becomes Yokozuna?

[torquato 1,075]

@Osunaarashi & Ramadan

The Quran makes exceptions concerning the fasting at ramadan for the ill, old aged and pregnant. It also makes an exception for travellers. They don't need to obey the fasting rule. So when Osunaarashi is going to travel to Nagoya for the basho, he does not necessarily need to fast.

This issue has widely been discussed during the last summer olympics, which overlaped with the 2012 Ramadan. Here's a New York Times article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/01/sports/olympics/ramadan-poses-challenges-for-muslims-at-the-olympics.html?_r=0

One Quotation from it: "In Egypt, for example, the fatwa committee at Al Azhar University in Cairo said flatly that athletes did not have to fast at the Olympics."

Perhaps somebody should tell Osunaarashi.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

@Osunaarashi & Ramadan

The Quran makes exceptions concerning the fasting at ramadan for the ill, old aged and pregnant. It also makes an exception for travellers. They don't need to obey the fasting rule. So when Osunaarashi is going to travel to Nagoya for the basho, he does not necessarily need to fast.

He knows, but he made the decision for himself to follow the rules strictly when the issue came up last year, IIRC. Of course that was at jonidan level, it's possible that he'll reconsider if he struggles badly because of it in juryo or in later years in makuuchi.

[rzombie1988 157]

There is no way he would turn down a Yokozuna promotion.

[Naganoyama 5,881]

He already does Shinto stuff every time he steps into the ring. I don't think he will have a problem with it.

[dingo 1,212]

Looking at the info in the Juryo promotions thread (maybe some posts should be merged here for sake of having all the discussion on this topic in one place?), seems like there is no issue about the rituals after all. It did also occur to me that during his period as rikishi Oosunaarashi would already have come in touch with some rituals, and if those were a problem then it would've been apparent already a while ago. Come to think of it, even throwing salt into the dohyo is already a Shinto-influenced purification ritual so things should be fine after all... unless a yokozuna's duties require something that really would be in conflict with his beliefs.

[kawika 123]

Akebono did. Musashimaru did.

[Tsubame 359]

Further sidenote regarding Osunaarashi: The next turnament coinciding with the ramadan in this year. I guess it will be a very hard basho for him, if he is a realy muslim. I wonder if it is possible to train and fight without eating the whole day for a basho and still finish with a good result. Maybe he will hit the wall in july.

[Akinomaki 40,068]

There is a big difference between the Shinto influenced rituals in sumo and the official Shinto functions of a yokozuna as the top representative of sumo. E.g. the shrine visits in connection to the dohyo-iri - they are not just "visits" but sanpai is a religious act, including praying to the local deity, offerings at the shrine etc. - e. g. at the Sumiyoshi taisha. A dohyo-iri for the return of the deity is maybe borderline. Of course lower rankers do visits as well, he may face problems before reaching the top.

I mentioned the subject because Oosunaarashi is that strict with the rules of his religion, wanting to follow the Ramadan though he could delay it till after the basho as there are exceptions for e. g. hard workers. I don't think he has thought of the other duties of a yokozuna when he said he wants to become one.

[Jakusotsu 5,876]

Moderator Notice

moved into a separate topic

Edited May 31, 2013 by Jakusotsu

[Kuroyama 715]

Well, it hasn't stopped any of the Eastern Europeans. Most of them are at least formally Orthodox Christians, and the out-and-out Shinto aspects of sumo haven't appeared to trouble their consciences. Of course, Orthodox Christianity also has fairly strict rules about diet certain time of year, and I'm pretty sure they're ignored, so they're very likely not observant.

If push came to shove, a case could probably be made for Osunaarashi that Shinto kami are more like jinn than anything else, the existence of which is a tenet of Islam, and the ritual acts don't so much worship them as courteously acknowledge their presence in what are, after all, their proper dwelling places.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Kuroyama

[p2501 15]

There are many professional sportsmen and women who are affected by their religion, most prominently ramadan. I remember an arcticle I read about ramadan and pro soccer players at the highest level. The consensus was that you can not compete at the highest level in a professional sport if you strictly follow ramadan. Most professional athletes deal with this in the way that they follow ramadan only to some extent and in exchange for the 'forbidden' stuff they did, they donate money/time/x to islamic care services or whatever.

[Asameshimae 220]

It'll probably be fine until the wrong people get a hold of the info (even that picture above) and decide he shouldn't be doing it and making a big fuss about it. Hope not.

[Manekineko 200]

Most professional athletes deal with this in the way that they follow ramadan only to some extent and in exchange for the 'forbidden' stuff they did, they donate money/time/x to islamic care services or whatever.

I can't speak for Muslims, but for Catholics works of charity can compensate not following dietary rules (ie. fasting and abstaining from meat on Fridays). All established religions tend to tolerate extenuating circumstances...

I agree that performing rituals in shinto shrines may be more problematic, but I do like the jinn solution. :-)

[krindel 671]

Every single major religion separates the act of the ritual, from the belief underlying the ritual. Eating or drinking the communion bread / wine does not make you a Christian, kneeling on a carpet and bowing towards Mecca does not make you a Muslim, and throwing salt at a dohyo does not make you a follower of Shinto. That is, unless you, personally make the decision that this particular act is a prayer, and of religious significance to you.

In countries with a single dominant religion, the religious rituals tend to be deeply integrated to the social and cultural norms of everyday life. People who do not follow the dominant religion of their social and work circle, tend to follow the "social" aspect of the ritual, even participating in it, without, however altering their own personal spiritual belief.

With regard to Osunaarashi, I think that the shinto rituals can be easily viewed as non-religious acts that are part of the social norm of his "job" (like attending the start-of-year blessing that happens in most companies in most orthodox christian countries and that I know from experience that many Muslims attend without problem). I seriously doubt that they will present a problem.

With regard to Ramadan, competitive sports have been mentioned in several fatwas as an exception to the fasting rule and an allowance is made to choose alternate ways of honoring it. After all, one must understand that Ramadan is not meant to be just a fast, it is meant to be a period of spiritual cleansing, self betterment, altruism and introspection. There are several ways to honor it, if need arises, fasting is just the most basic one.

Like Osunaarashi said: If he finds that he needs to eat, he'll eat :-)

[Masumasumasu 902]

There is a big difference between the Shinto influenced rituals in sumo and the official Shinto functions of a yokozuna as the top representative of sumo. E.g. the shrine visits in connection to the dohyo-iri - they are not just "visits" but sanpai is a religious act, including praying to the local deity, offerings at the shrine etc. - e. g. at the Sumiyoshi taisha. A dohyo-iri for the return of the deity is maybe borderline. Of course lower rankers do visits as well, he may face problems before reaching the top.

I mentioned the subject because Oosunaarashi is that strict with the rules of his religion, wanting to follow the Ramadan though he could delay it till after the basho as there are exceptions for e. g. hard workers. I don't think he has thought of the other duties of a yokozuna when he said he wants to become one.

Bingo.

An Orthodox Jew would never do sumo because of the many religious conflicts. Devout Muslims, likewise.

[krindel 671]

There is a big difference between the Shinto influenced rituals in sumo and the official Shinto functions of a yokozuna as the top representative of sumo. E.g. the shrine visits in connection to the dohyo-iri - they are not just "visits" but sanpai is a religious act, including praying to the local deity, offerings at the shrine etc. - e. g. at the Sumiyoshi taisha. A dohyo-iri for the return of the deity is maybe borderline. Of course lower rankers do visits as well, he may face problems before reaching the top.

I mentioned the subject because Oosunaarashi is that strict with the rules of his religion, wanting to follow the Ramadan though he could delay it till after the basho as there are exceptions for e. g. hard workers. I don't think he has thought of the other duties of a yokozuna when he said he wants to become one.

Bingo.

An Orthodox Jew would never do sumo because of the many religious conflicts. Devout Muslims, likewise.

But a devout Orthodox Christian would? Or a devout Catholic? Or a devout Hinduist? What about an atheist? I wouldn't be so quick to put people and their beliefs in boxes, there are many many denominations and sects within each religion, and even within those sects there are different interpretations of the same basic tennets.

Each person's view of the religious and spiritual world is personal, and his standing on whether an act violates his beliefs is his own to determine (maybe taking into account the views of his spiritual / religious advisor / cleric, assuming he has or wants one).

As a reference, however, I can point out that Indian Islam for example has a very relaxed attitude with regard to the Muslim population's participation in Hindu festivals. Of course not every sect agrees on the subject, but, like I mentioned, it still falls to each person to decide what his beliefs are.

I have no solid opinion on whether actual belief in Shinto is a requirement (implied or stated) for a rikishi (or in particular for a Yokozuna). To the best of my knowledge it is not, but I welcome a correction on that front. If sumo requires a particular belief in order to promote a Yokozuna, then yes, Osunaarashi has an issue (as I assume most European and American rikishi would have as well).

If, however, the requirement is that he participate in the rituals (without being required to assign personal religious significance to them), then it is a matter for himself to decide if it violates his beliefs, and the fatwa defining the fiqh ul-aqalliyat (loosely translated "code of conduct for Muslims living as a minority) that apply to his own religious community. It is not for us to decide if that makes him a "Devout Muslim" or not.

So, to summarize, I don't know if Sumo has an issue with having a Yokozuna or an Ozeki who is not a shintoist, but if Sumo has no issue, then it is up to Osunaarashi to decide if he has a problem with the obligations that arise from his possibly being one... He has a shisho, and I assume he has a Mufti he follows back home, I am sure they'll guide him as needed.

[yorikiried by fate 2,001]

Maybe someone could rename the thread "Promotion/Devotion Discussions"?

(and then lock it for good measure...)

[Asashosakari 18,996]

It is not for us to decide if that makes him a "Devout Muslim" or not.

Ah, you must have missed masumasumasu's first go at the subject about a year ago...

[Senkoho 552]

a little bit off-topic, not necessarily in connection with any of the above posts:

ok, I've wanted to say that for a couple of months now: Masu, i think you might want to set up a new account on this forum because some of the users are apparently allergic to your nickname (which apparently is a red cloth that sometimes makes them unusually hostile)

[Masumasumasu 902]

a little bit off-topic, not necessarily in connection with any of the above posts:

ok, I've wanted to say that for a couple of months now: Masu, i think you might want to set up a new account on this forum because some of the users are apparently allergic to your nickname (which apparently is a red cloth that sometimes makes them unusually hostile)

My question about his religion is legitimate. Sorry.

[Akinomaki 40,068]

I usually refrain from discussions about "banned" subjects (religion is one in the forum rules), but I try one more comment.
First I don't think Oosunaarashi will make it to yokozuna - he has too many ailments and injuries already. I see for him a career like Baruto.
The old thread was interesting, but has nothing much to do with my issue.

And that basically is: can a devout believer reconcile with his conscience to perform the Shinto duties of a yokozuna.

Were/are Akebono and Musashimaru devout believers ? Has anyone asked them ? Did they have to solve some conflicts in connection with that ?
Had they refused to do the shrine duties, the talk about no foreigner being able to be yokozuna would have become unbearable.

There is no problem from the Shinto side to have foreigners perform their rituals, they don't have members lists anyway.
There is no effect for anyone's belief if he takes part in such rituals, it is just Japanese culture.
But this is not some guest or tourist politely at a shrine mimicking the actions of his host, who supposedly believes in the religious meaning of them.
The yokozuna is part of the ritual itself, not just present and having a cultural/sportive event at some local facility, which just happens to be a shrine.

Oosunaarashi may have no problems while in the lower ranks to refuse praying at a shrine when e. g. the heya visits there or later when makuuchi rikishi make their collective visits, if he decides that this is not only a gesture but a religious act incompatible with his faith.
I guess he would get special treatment like that till ozeki (I heard some stories though about Konishiki having had some conflicts with his conscience).

And I think that over 99% of all Egyptians would just be proud of their native son, with only a small minority criticizing his involvement in pagan rituals.

BTW, did he actively take part in throwing the gyoji in the air at the end of the basho where he was in mae-zumo ? The announcer tells that this ritual means sending the deity(ies) back up, which were dwelling in dohyo during the basho.