Nagoya Basho 2013 discussion thread

[Kintamayama 44,652]

and this was Kintamayama's 18000th post on this forum (Holiday feeling...) (Punk rocker...)

(i notice stuff like this ... sorry .... thanks Moti for all your contribution here)

I should get a life.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

I think about 95% of members here don't want to see Harumafuji retire. The point being made is his records lately are not "up to standard", as the YDC keeps reminding us. I don't think any Oyakata or riji (or any of us..) really thinks Harumafuji needs to retire any time soon. It's the YDC guys. Rijicho usually says "yes, sir, definitely sir" and then bumps them off. I doubt there is a strong tendency to retire him. They need him at this point. As long as he doesn't go kyujo every other basho or posts 8-7s, he'll be fine.

Well, if he did go kyujo frequently but won 12+ when he makes it through, he'd be more of a traditionally "good" yokozuna than he is by struggling to 10 wins. Case in point, I bet some guys in the past - especially if they already had other mediocre results in some recent tournaments - would have been tempted after losing two in a row as Harumafuji just did. Claim a phony injury and take a 6-4-5 finish for appearance's sake. I'm okay with him sticking it out even at the risk of another sub-10 score (I've mentioned before that my thoughts about "weak" yokozuna are pretty much like Tsubame's), but in the long run he's probably not doing himself any favours.

[Surabuyan 6]

I saw some comparison btw Osunaarashi and Endo. I don't watch lower divisions very much to know more about Endo but I am following Osunaarashi. Endo is a college champion like hundreds of others before him and he's doing good because he has experience. Osunaarashi is going to be a much greater rikishi. There are a lot of reasons for that. He reminds me of Kotooshu before he became ozeki, but with more fighting spirit, more agility and also more ambition. Maybe he's still not that physically strong as Kotooshu was but he is strong enough to get into Makuuchi. He will be in sanyaku next year.

[Benevolance 2,484]

Osunaarashi is going to be a much greater rikishi.

He reminds me of Kotooshu

Not a comparison I would willingly make about a wrestler I like. :D

I think Osunaarashi will be good. I think Endo will be good. Maybe one will be better than the other, and maybe they'll both be great in their different ways. I don't care. I'm excited about seeing both rise in the ranks and pushing some of the mediocre guys out of the makuuchi. As someone else mentioned earlier, right now it's not a question of who is going to win the yuusho, but whether anyone can challenge Hakuho. I'd like to see a tougher talent pool at the top for him to face.

And to that end, I doubt the association will demand Harumafuji's retirement for one simple reason: right now, he's the only rikishi that has consistently tested Hakuho in the past year.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Benevolance

[wanderer 159]

I saw some comparison btw Osunaarashi and Endo. I don't watch lower divisions very much to know more about Endo but I am following Osunaarashi. Endo is a college champion like hundreds of others before him and he's doing good because he has experience. Osunaarashi is going to be a much greater rikishi. There are a lot of reasons for that. He reminds me of Kotooshu before he became ozeki, but with more fighting spirit, more agility and also more ambition. Maybe he's still not that physically strong as Kotooshu was but he is strong enough to get into Makuuchi. He will be in sanyaku next year.

My take is this:

Endo may perform on par with Kotomitsuki. If he keeps his weight and injury under control, he may even surpass Kotomitsuki.

Osunaarashi looks to be Roho 2.0 in skills and ranks.

[Asojima 2,873]

Osunaarashi and Endo have now moved into the 15 day spotlight. They are now being closely observed by the upper level rikishi to learn their strengths and weaknesses. The strengths will be avoided and the weaknesses will be exploited. They have the fame. They now have to fight familiarity. Takanoyama is beginning to lose the familiarity battle.

[Asojima 2,873]

My take is this:

... Osunaarashi looks to be Roho 2.0 in skills and ranks.

Roho had an attitude problem. He went all out until he was out of the yusho race. He then did the minimum needed to stay out of the demotion range. I see no indication of such an attitude for Osunaarashi.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

Osunaarashi and Endo have now moved into the 15 day spotlight. They are now being closely observed by the upper level rikishi to learn their strengths and weaknesses. The strengths will be avoided and the weaknesses will be exploited. They have the fame. They now have to fight familiarity. Takanoyama is beginning to lose the familiarity battle.

This goes for Chiyotairyu, too, though at a more specialized level. I'm pretty sure all the top rankers are capable of smothering his offense the way Kotooshu did today once the surprise factor has worn off; it remains to be seen if Tairyu has enough aces up his proverbial sleeve to re-counter that.

BTW, as a cautionary tale about Osunaarashi's prospects I'd suggest a look at Tochinoshin's career.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

My take is this:

... Osunaarashi looks to be Roho 2.0 in skills and ranks.

Roho had an attitude problem. He went all out until he was out of the yusho race. He then did the minimum needed to stay out of the demotion range. I see no indication of such an attitude for Osunaarashi.

Wait, what? This is the first time I read "Roho" and "yusho race" in the same sentence... something is wrong here.

[Asojima 2,873]

My take is this:

... Osunaarashi looks to be Roho 2.0 in skills and ranks.

Roho had an attitude problem. He went all out until he was out of the yusho race. He then did the minimum needed to stay out of the demotion range. I see no indication of such an attitude for Osunaarashi.

Wait, what? This is the first time I read "Roho" and "yusho race" in the same sentence... something is wrong here.

I didn't say that he ever stayed in the race very long. B-)

[shumitto 418]

Not a long ago Tosayutaka was quickly moving up the ranks touted as the next big thing out of college sumo. The same with Kiyoseumi/Ichihara. I am not saying Endo isn't good - in fact I see him as very solid rikishi - but so many shine at those depths only to grind to halt some point later; the same caution is advised in Osunaarashi's case, as pointed out by Asashosakari 2 posts ago. Lower Juryo is no gauge for success at San'yaku level.

[aderechelsea 124]

i agree with you but Endo is not overweight like Ichihara or under-sized like Tosayutaka. The over-hype around him seems more appropriate than for these guys.

And mind you ... i am one of the biggest "Gorilla" fans around here but i am not living a fantasy about his prospects in high Makuuchi.

(i do that only for Kyokushuho and i keep getting disappointed (Sigh...))

[Fay 1,677]

(i do that only for Kyokushuho and i keep getting disappointed (Sigh...))

I must come to Kyokushuho's defence. Recently jumped on the bandwagon cause he made such progress in developping his personality. The injury from Natsu basho is not completely healed yet and he still has some problems with it. I think we can be lucky if he manages a kachi koshi this basho. When the injury is completely cured, we can hope again that he fulfills our expectations. (Sigh...)

[Nabuko 11]

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=12051

Ishiura 19 consecutive victories from maezumo with unconventional style.

[wanderer 159]

Osunaarashi and Endo have now moved into the 15 day spotlight. They are now being closely observed by the upper level rikishi to learn their strengths and weaknesses. The strengths will be avoided and the weaknesses will be exploited. They have the fame. They now have to fight familiarity. Takanoyama is beginning to lose the familiarity battle.

This goes for Chiyotairyu, too, though at a more specialized level. I'm pretty sure all the top rankers are capable of smothering his offense the way Kotooshu did today once the surprise factor has worn off; it remains to be seen if Tairyu has enough aces up his proverbial sleeve to re-counter that.

BTW, as a cautionary tale about Osunaarashi's prospects I'd suggest a look at Tochinoshin's career.

I agree the two may have similar careers. Just as side note, Tohinoshin has very strong legs, while Osunaarashi has stronger upper body but weaker legs. If there is someone with Tohinoshins legs and Osunaarashi upper body, this hypothetical rikishi will be far better than both.

[Yubinhaad 11,594]

Random piece of trivia I picked up today. In the post-WW2 era, Chiyotairyu is the eighth hiramaku to win his first two bouts against a particular Yokozuna (Harumafuji).

Any guesses as to who the last rikishi to do this was?

Shikishima, who won his first two bouts against Takanohana back in 1998. Query*

* Not counting Kairyuyama, because his two wins against Asashio were both fusen.

[Doitsuyama 1,178]

Random piece of trivia I picked up today. In the post-WW2 era, Chiyotairyu is the eighth hiramaku to win his first two bouts against a particular Yokozuna (Harumafuji).

Any guesses as to who the last rikishi to do this was?

Nice list, but it doesn't exactly tell much about Chiyotairyu's future as the rikishi are all over the place career wise, from M2 to to weak ozeki to strong ozeki to ill-fated yokozuna.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Oosunaarashi is a very powerful rikishi and will, I feel - and have written - make sanyaku.

In comparison to other similarly built rikishi it is understandable why people see Roho in him, Tochinoshin too (minus the massive thighs), Kokkai as I mentioned before.

He is currently top heavy, and his tachi-ai at times is just not there but time is on his side. FWIW - I think there might be a discussion on him next weekend on the NHK English side as I was fortunate enough to bump into the much respected Stuart Atkin on the set of a new drama at the weekend, and we discussed the Egyptian for a short time.

Endo meanwhile - much much more rounded and is arriving at the top of the sport at a time he can still learn from going against the current sanyaku men, and step into their shoes in 3 or 4 years when they are gone. A really exciting rikishi is this lad.

[yorikiried by fate 2,001]

Random piece of trivia I picked up today. In the post-WW2 era, Chiyotairyu is the eighth hiramaku to win his first two bouts against a particular Yokozuna (Harumafuji).

Any guesses as to who the last rikishi to do this was?

The list naturally doesn't look much different, if Rikishi 1 is not restricted to Maegashira.

Anyway, interesting to see the huge gap between the previous occurence and Chiyotairyu's feat. Must have something to do with Asashoryu's amazing record against new opponents.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

Anyway, interesting to see the huge gap between the previous occurence and Chiyotairyu's feat. Must have something to do with Asashoryu's amazing record against new opponents.

Well, and the fact that there have been much fewer yokozuna altogether.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

Kimishima (see post #223) had another interesting bout on Day 9:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e9jtuTu1jk

[Masumasumasu 902]

Why do the English-language commentators always talk about how 'sharp' Kitanofuji looks?

[Vikanohara 171]

I saw quite some interesting bouts last couple of days and as I have some time today, here's a short recap :

day 10

M1 : Goeido (2-7) vs Harumafuji (6-3) : for who of them it will even get worse this basho ?

M2 : Hakuho (9-0) vs Myogiryu (5-4) : great skills

J1 : Osunaarashi (6-3) vs Tochinowaka (7-2) : top Juryo fight of the day

J2 : Endo (8-1) vs Satoyama (6-3) : showing him all corners of the dohyo

Ms1 : Shoho (3-1) vs Kimikaze (3-1) : what a bumpy bout

Ms2 : Amuru (4-0) vs Gochozan (4-0) : the Russian steadily on his way to Juryo again & who got it ?

Sd : Tamao in trouble again

Jd : Asanojo (4-0) vs Tanahashi (4-0) : the latter having had about double as many KK than MK & a close call

Jk : Kaminoyama (3-1) vs Aokishin (2-2) : the latter struggling after another long abscence

day 9

M : Myogiryu (4-4) vs Harumafuji (6-2) : no bitch slapping !

J : Oniarashi (2-6) vs Homasho (6-2) : unexpected

Ms1 : Kimurayama (2-2) vs Kitaharima (2-2) : nice escape

Ms2 : Iwasaki (4-0) vs Asatenmai (4-0) : entertaining show

Sd : Akinokawa (4-0) vs Ishiura (4-0) : the latter still unbeaten

Jk : Horikiri (4-0) vs Ikeru (4-0) : pre-Yusho fight ?

day 8

M : Hakuho (7-0) vs Aminishiki (2-5) : almost the end of his streak

J : Takanoiwa (5-2) vs Azumaryu (2-5) : living on the edge

Ms : Wakamisho (3-0) vs Sakigake (3-0) : nice odd finish

Sd : Shibahara (3-0) vs Ishiura (3-0)

Jd : Oshio (1-2) vs Kurenishiki (1-2) : as already pointed out by Asashosakari

day 7

M : Kisenosato (4-2) vs Goeido (1-5) : just for the upset

J1 : Osunaarashi (4-2) vs Homasho (5-1) : quite anticipated, and almost a mono-ii

J2 : Wakakoyu (4-2) vs Satoyama (4-2) : I believe I can fly

Ms : Chiyomaru (2-1) vs Hamaguchi (2-1) : sadly leading to a kyujo

Jk : Ikeru (3-0) vs Aokishin (2-1) : the rare tasukizori

Edited July 16, 2013 by Vikanohara

[Vikanohara 171]

Kimishima (see post #223) had another interesting bout on Day 9

Indeed, another one to start keeping my eye on. B-)

[Masumasumasu 902]

Tochiozan has the bushiest sideburns I have ever seen.