Nagoya Basho 2013 discussion thread

[krindel 671]

If someone told me before the basho that Hakuho's only pursuers going into day 10 would be Kotooshu and Kaisei, I wouldn't believe it...

Although I do wonder when they are planning to give Kaisei some tougher meat to chew on.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

Although I do wonder when they are planning to give Kaisei some tougher meat to chew on.

He's kachikoshi now, so probably at the next opportunity (Day 11).

[ronnie 221]

Aminishiki looked a bit banged up today. Noticed him leaning on the dhoyo during the monoii, then his leg seemed to buckle somewhat at the end of the re-do.

[Morty 1,483]

That look on Harumafuji's face at the end of his bout with Myo said it all. You could just see him thinking "In retrospect, it may have been a mistake to slap him like that..."

[Akinomaki 40,068]

Day 8: 7400 spectators – full house of course

Kaisei: “I want to do it in a way that I won't get injured.”

Introducing a new way of stretching for his chronic back pain: “Wakakoyu told me at the Haru jungyo. It has become a bit better.” Also with the heat in Nagoya the pain recedes.

[Akinomaki 40,068]

This basho a stern warning looks sure for Harumafuji: similar easy losses like Kisenosato, but Kise can try again in future basho - HF can't afford one more loss – 2 more and intai recommendation is possible.

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Actually it's nice thing to be reminded of that Harumafuji is a pretty mediocre Yokozuna to date.

The lowhlights, as you can query better than me ofc, are:

• 50-19 win/loss record (72%) Take away that one (his only as y) yusho and it's a dismal 35-19 (65%). That's averaging 10.8 and 9.75 wp basho respectively.
• two 9-6 in the space of 2 basho - virtually unheard of. Last time someone was close was Hokutoumi toward his end. Again, most Yokozuna have in the past retired mid-basho when doing badly, but these are the numbers.
• Gave away 7 kinboshi in less than 5 basho. If I am counting correctly, Hakuho has 8 for his entire career as a Yokozuna. 36 Basho (!) Unfair comparison I know, but these are the two Yokozuna we currently have
• the list goes on. I'm sure others can (cherry)pick historical comparisons

[Tsubame 359]

I, for my part, am very grateful, that we finally have a mediocre yokozuna. And, if I could, I would wish that Kisenosato (or someone else) will become a mediocre yokozuna too.

I am really sick of all those comparisons with Asashoryu/Hakuho. Yeah, we can be proud of being eyewitness of these two god-like uber-dai-yokozunas in such a short time. But why does anyone try to rise the standards for yokozuna performance only because we saw/see two yokozunas performing way above all standards?

And Harumafuji will maybe get a "warning note" due to his poor performance, but a "recommendation of retirement" after such a short time in top rank is ridiculous (even for the YDC).

EDIT: And what about Baruto? Some speculated that he will might return for some bouts to stay in makuuchi. Can we expect that or is he totally out?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Tsubame

[Hakuyobaku 33]

I, for my part, am very grateful, that we finally have a mediocre yokozuna. And, if I could, I would wish that Kisenosato (or someone else) will become a mediocre yokozuna too.

I am really sick of all those comparisons with Asashoryu/Hakuho. Yeah, we can be proud of being eyewitness of these two god-like uber-dai-yokozunas in such a short time. But why does anyone try to rise the standards for yokozuna performance only because we saw/see two yokozunas performing way above all standards?

And Harumafuji will maybe get a "warning note" due to his poor performance, but a "recommendation of retirement" after such a short time in top rank is ridiculous (even for the YDC).

Fair enough,

But thing is - and i stress again that I am not good in historical comparisons - HF's performance to date is pretty mediocre by any standards not by the Hakuho's or Asashoryu's. It comes close enough to Wakanohana's. (hard to compare cause Wakanohana had a lot of mid'basho retirements, but still). On top of that Harumafuji is at a point in his career when he should be peaking. 30 next year and age-related slump, injury related or otherwise, is not far away if we don't consider he's the Kyokutenho type. He's 1 year older than Hakuho for God's sake. What possibly saves his reputation is 5 yushos already :) And probably he'll get a couple more in.

[salle 11]

I am really sick of all those comparisons with Asashoryu/Hakuho. Yeah, we can be proud of being eyewitness of these two god-like uber-dai-yokozunas in such a short time. But why does anyone try to rise the standards for yokozuna performance only because we saw/see two yokozunas performing way above all standards?

Short memory?

The standards were very high well before Asashoryu and Hakuho.

Within last 20 years there was only one "weak" yokozuna - Wakanohana. Even Musashimaru who got the tsuna very late in his career was a beast when healthy and what about Akebono and Takanohana who always had very strong opposition during their prime unlike mongolian yokozunas?

[Tsubame 359]

@Hakuyobaku

You are right, one would remember Harumafuji as very disappointing yokozuna. But for me it's "part of the game". Without such mediocre yokozunas (or ozekis, as you could expand the comparisions to other ranks) from time to time, we would never start discuss a possible promotion of Kisenosato with only a jun-yusho.

But your consideration about Harumafuji are still right, and I agree in that point with you (but that is easy for me, as I was and will never be a fan of him).

@salle

No, no short memory, sir. But in those old days we had more then one yokozuna and on top of it, strong ozekis. Today we only ask wether someone is able to stand against Hakuho and maybe wins the yusho. There is no question about "who" wins the basho, but more "can someone challenge Hakuho to not win the basho". In the mid-90s there were a lot a possible yusho winner in most every tournament.

My hypothesis: The more possible yusho-candidates there are, the more you oversee weaker performances of some individuals. And that's the problem of Harumafuji...

[aderechelsea 124]

i really don't see a point in all this comparisons.

a guy wins 5 yusho. 3 of them zensho. He IS a rikishi worthy of being called a yokozuna.

does anyone really want to see him retire because he is a yokozuna that has mediocre records?

if he retires the top half of the banzuke will lose one of it's best talents. I wouldn't want to see bashos with no Harumafuji appearances.

so yeah ... let him be a "mediocre" yokozuna for all he wants if the alternative is to talk about Kise's (or anyone's that ever won anything) tsunatori runs.

let's be wowed in the presence of our bunch of underachieving Ozekis (with all and all 1 yusho between the 4 of them) and let's cry out for the mediocrity of our yokozuna that is not up to our standards. Even though he has done already what all of his opponents (barring one of course) couldn't achieve even as a team.

get over the fact that he is called "yokozuna" and try to think of him as a dai-ozeki. And then demote everyone else to "dai-sekiwake" or lower.

and last but not least .... HE IS NOT OCCUPYING A POSITION IN THE BANZUKE THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN GET TO IF THEY CAN.

if such a mediocre yokozuna is active now i don't see anyone taking advantage of the fact that they have to face him every basho.

just relax and enjoy what he is offering in the ring no matter how is he called. Before every bout the yobidashi and the gyoji are announcing him as "Harumafuji" .... not "Yokozuna Harumafuji". All the rest of the rikishi have to do is beat this "Harumafuji" guy ... but they cannot do it constantly, and when he is healthy they are just dreaming of doing it once

relax ....and .... enjoy

[Akinomaki 40,068]

Seems that Oosunaarashi now like Masunoyama has to finish his bouts quickly – that has made him even more aggressive, but maybe he finds new and better ways of doing sumo – not better looking, but more efficient.

Kotooshu these days has again showed the good sumo like in the beginning, still in the yusho race in the second half of the basho.

Kotoshogiku was beaten with his own type of sumo.

[Akinomaki 40,068]

I don't think the YDC will really issue an intai recommendation unless HF finishes 8-7

– 10-5 and one demand in the session, 9-6 and about half of the members demanding it, with the chief deciding not to.

[Nabuko 11]

I hope so. Harumafuji is rather strong rikishi and upper makuuchi without him would be significantly depleted. Hak going older, three limited ozekis, and some rikishi with lot of expectation but without proper and stable delivery and roulette selection of other is much weaker without him

[wanderer 159]

I am really sick of all those comparisons with Asashoryu/Hakuho. Yeah, we can be proud of being eyewitness of these two god-like uber-dai-yokozunas in such a short time. But why does anyone try to rise the standards for yokozuna performance only because we saw/see two yokozunas performing way above all standards?

Short memory?

The standards were very high well before Asashoryu and Hakuho.

Within last 20 years there was only one "weak" yokozuna - Wakanohana. Even Musashimaru who got the tsuna very late in his career was a beast when healthy and what about Akebono and Takanohana who always had very strong opposition during their prime unlike mongolian yokozunas?

I am quite sure that Asashoryu and Hakuho are not to blame for mediocre opposition.

[Asashosakari 18,996]

Short memory?

The standards were very high well before Asashoryu and Hakuho.

Akebono had plenty of years that weren't much to write home about in the middle of his yokozuna career.

Within last 20 years there was only one "weak" yokozuna - Wakanohana. Even Musashimaru who got the tsuna very late in his career was a beast when healthy and what about Akebono and Takanohana who always had very strong opposition during their prime unlike mongolian yokozunas?

Takanohana? He had a couple of very good opponents (Bono, Maru) plus a boatload of very mediocre opponents during the years when he won the majority of his yusho, thanks to not having to face any of his stablemates.

(And the same goes for Wakanohana and Takanonami at that time. If Kisenosato and Harumafuji were getting the same type of creampuff schedule today that the Futagoyama guys got in the mid-90s, they'd be winning 11-13 every basho, too.)

Edit: For kicks, here's Wakanohana (12-3) in Haru 1995. Round brackets are opponents he wasn't allowed to meet due to the same-heya rule.

(Ye Takanohana 13-2)

Yw Akebono 14-1

O1e Musashimaru 12-3

(O2e Takanonami 9-6)

Se Kaio 8-7

(Sw Akinoshima 11-4)

(Ke Naminohana 6-9)

Kw Daishoho 5-10

M1e Kotobeppu 3-12

(M1w Misugisato 5-10)

(M2e Takatoriki 8-7)

M2w Asanowaka 6-9

M3e Konishiki 5-10

[M3w Kotonishiki 0-0-15]

M4e Kotonowaka 7-8

[M4w Musoyama 0-0-15]

M5e Daishi 3-12

M5w Oginishiki 3-12

M6e Terao 8-7

M6w Tochinowaka 6-9

M7e Tomonohana 5-10

M7w Kenko 10-5

M8e Hamanoshima 6-9

Now, imagine today's ozeki squad or Harumafuji getting to avoid Hakuho (= Takanohana), one fellow ozeki (= Takanonami), two rikishi of Goeido/Myogiryu/Tochiozan quality (= Akinoshima/Takatoriki), and a credible meatgrinder rikishi (let's say Toyonoshima = Misugisato). Or even try to imagine Hakuho getting all those breaks - he'd probably be going 87-3 every year.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Nabuko 11]

Daikiho and Kyokushuho match was excellent.

[aderechelsea 124]

Takanohana? He had a couple of very good opponents (Bono, Maru) plus a boatload of very mediocre opponents during the years when he won the majority of his yusho, thanks to not having to face any of his stablemates.

(And the same goes for Wakanohana and Takanonami at that time. If Kisenosato and Harumafuji were getting the same type of creampuff schedule today that the Futagoyama guys got in the mid-90s, they'd be winning 11-13 every basho, too.)

thank you for reminding people the serious details of that era and putting the whole mediocrity talk in historical perspective.

Daikiho and Kyokushuho match was excellent.

it was indeed but i still feel "robbed" as a Shuho fan by the result. He should have beaten Daikiho after all he did before extending his hand to cut the impact of his fall. With loses like that i will start thinking he will not become Yokozuna any time soon :-P .

[Kintamayama 44,652]

I think about 95% of members here don't want to see Harumafuji retire. The point being made is his records lately are not "up to standard", as the YDC keeps reminding us. I don't think any Oyakata or riji (or any of us..) really thinks Harumafuji needs to retire any time soon. It's the YDC guys. Rijicho usually says "yes, sir, definitely sir" and then bumps them off. I doubt there is a strong tendency to retire him. They need him at this point. As long as he doesn't go kyujo every other basho or posts 8-7s, he'll be fine.

[Akinomaki 40,068]

Myogiryu: “It's the fighting spirit. I knew he would come with slaps to the face. It was good that I remained patient.” About tomorrow against Hakuho: “I can go with a good feeling. It's alright when I go with all my strength again tomorrow .”

Kyokutenho, more than the loss complaining about continuous thoughtless cheering from the tamari-seats: 'Japanese, don't lose !' - “That while I for my part have learned in this country and have been doing my best. This type of support is bad.”

[aderechelsea 124]

and this was Kintamayama's 18000th post on this forum (Holiday feeling...) (Punk rocker...)

(i notice stuff like this ... sorry .... thanks Moti for all your contribution here)

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Sorry if it sounded so but I never implied that HF must retire or I want him to retire. Just tried to point out the facts and put them in perspective.

[Masumasumasu 902]

I’ve got a question: what’s jūryō’s Endo’s name, precisely? Endo, or Endō (Endou)?

Anyway, I’m not sure if he’s ever been mentioned in here, but he’s really impressive. Much more so than Ōsunaarashi.

Well, he's had about 5 more years of professional-quality coaching than Osunaarashi. And most top-level collegiate rikishi look impressive up to lower juryo - and still many of them turn only into Takekaze or Tosayutaka these days. (I guess Jokoryu and Daikiho are rapidly playing themselves into that category, too.)

Blah, blah, blah.

[aderechelsea 124]

since this is brought up again ... i also think Endo is quite impressive. I rate him quite high in my personal "prospect list".

He is so technically solid with what he does this far that i am just expecting to see more stuff from him in order to see his limits. High Juryo or low Makushita will be a nice test but a visit to the meat-grinder will tell the best parts (or rather the important parts) of his story.

He has the body and the right attitude for sumo. I hope he is the real deal.