Nagoya Basho 2013 discussion thread

[Asashosakari 18,997]

Thanks for that, Pierre. I get sick of hearing this kind of stuff. I have to say, however, it would be nice if Harumafuji took the occasional basho off when he's not feeling up to it. After all, Takanohana took SEVEN tournaments off IN A ROW to 'recover'.

This is where a couple more yokozuna (cough, Kisenosato, cough, Kotoshogiku) would come in real handy. If there was at least one guy in each basho who could deliver a credible challenge, things would look much brighter. Then again that's pretty much the same thing we said when we had six ozeki not so long ago...

(BTW, to avoid any confusion: My question about Kashiwado wasn't rhetorical in nature, I genuinely am wondering how long the perception of a credible "rivalry" between him and Taiho survived past their mutual promotion.)

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

If you like, I could ask people who know the answer to that question (Kashiwado). Obviously it depends on me remembering to ask them! Which I won't.

[Kintamayama 44,652]

Thanks for that, Pierre. I get sick of hearing this kind of stuff. I have to say, however, it would be nice if Harumafuji took the occasional basho off when he's not feeling up to it. After all, Takanohana took SEVEN tournaments off IN A ROW to 'recover'.

This is where a couple more yokozuna (cough, Kisenosato, cough, Kotoshogiku) would come in real handy. If there was at least one guy in each basho who could deliver a credible challenge, things would look much brighter. Then again that's pretty much the same thing we said when we had six ozeki not so long ago...

(BTW, to avoid any confusion: My question about Kashiwado wasn't rhetorical in nature, I genuinely am wondering how long the perception of a credible "rivalry" between him and Taiho survived past their mutual promotion.)

It was there till the end. I was but a wee lad then, but we used to play Taihou and Kashiwado when we were kids. The excitement of anticipating their match up was unbelievable. It didn't matter what the numbers were-all of Japan stopped to watch. Before that, it was Wakanohana -Tochinishiki. I even got to see it live once at the old Kuramae Kokugikan- I have a picture somewhere with Tsurugamine, Terao's dad. I'll look for it..

[Koorifuu 924]

Kisenosato can't just cope with the pressure of having a determined goal of specific wins per basho. He only got to be ozeki because it was slapped on his back when no-one expected and criteria was loosened. If it was always gonna be "X or more wins" he would crumble. Heck, if it weren't for that sudden promotion he'd be that eternal sekiwake that'd just fall short of ozekidom everytime but never going to makekoshi. Unless he suddenly grows some nerves on decisive moments, I fear the only way there's yokozunadom on his pathway is if the YDC decide to keep tsunas a holy secret.

Well, the kyokai could use the revenue a Japanese yokozuna would bring even if it was Futahaguro #2. Gotta find a way to make up for all those kinboshi Harumafuji is handing out on bimonthy giveaways.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Koorifuu

[dingo 1,212]

Breaking off from the yokozuna discussion a bit, I really admired Yoshikaze's henka today. Say about henka what you will, you've got to admit that this was one of the most beautifully executed ones -- he moved towards his aite at tachiai and broke off at the last millisecond. Amazing.

Meanwhile, I'm starting to feel about Aoiyama this basho similar to how some others feel about henka -- his pulldowns get the job done, but there's nothing pretty or fair about them and this basho he's a total one-trick-pony. A very boring pony I might add. I hope he tries that again next basho and gets taught by upper makuuchi.

[Asashosakari 18,997]

He only got to be ozeki because it was slapped on his back when no-one expected ...

I don't understand this. He had 32 wins after Day 14 and they said he had done enough, and he promptly proceeded to lose his final bout which now didn't matter. How does this qualify as a promotion "no one expected"? On the contrary, it was a promotion everybody expected, and even more so after his shisho died.

Edit: Okay, I guess some foreign fans who treat 33 as a holy number didn't expect it, but maybe it's time to step out of the echo chamber.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Asashosakari

[shumitto 418]

First time I get to see Tokushoryu on TV, after all it is his first Makuuchi basho. He looks like a nice guy, also during the interview. Today's bout was very intense, and once again he showed versatility by adapting his approach to the circumstances. With that focus and brand of sumo he is likely a good asset to the division.

My impression on seeing Tosayutaka is that he is quite close to where his current strenght can take him. Unless there is some more healing to go in that knee.

[krindel 671]

I wonder if Hakuho might end up having his first kyujo basho as yokozuna on this even weaker yokozuna run for Kisenosato. All they really need to make his possible promotion a complete joke is a fusensho against Hak on Saturday, and a 12-3 playoff yusho next time, with an absent Hakuho.

Is it time again to list the circumstances of Asashoryu's yokozuna run?

In any case, if Kise put together a hypothetical 13-2J, 12-3J, whatever-whateverY run, I wouldn't see much wrong with promoting him. How did that splendid 30-0 run from Harumafuji work out again?

Edit: Apropos of something...

I really don't see what Asashoryu's case can possibly have to do here. Musashimaru and Takanohana were not just kyujo, but both were finished (Takanohana retired and Musashimaru never completed a basho again), and I don't think anyone has a single doubt that Asa would have been the next Yokozuna even if it took a basho or two more. In our case, Hakuho is far from finished (I hope), and IF he goes kyujo it would be for the first time in ages.

Harumafuji is a weird case by all means, a brilliant rikishi when at his best, but with his best not coming around that often. Not sure how he will go down in history, but in my book his 5 yusho are enough to justify the tsuna around his waist, no matter his other results.

Kisenosato will be made Yokozuna, at the first possible chance, it is rather obvious by now. I just seriously hope that the people who are saying that getting the tsuna will take the pressure off his shoulders and release him are right. The sport definitely needs a good Kisenosato (and as I said in my previous post, I do think he has it in him to be better).

And i seriously hope that they wait to get him promoted with at least a yusho, for his own and the sport's sake.

[Washuyama 638]

Hakuho will probably lose rest of his bouts, ...

I seriously doubt it... He's only lost 3-straight twice since becoming Yok.

[Washuyama 638]

...but in my book his 5 yusho are enough to justify the tsuna around his (HMF) waist, no matter his other results.

I bet Kaio wishes YOU were a member of the YDC...

[krindel 671]

...but in my book his 5 yusho are enough to justify the tsuna around his (HMF) waist, no matter his other results.

I bet Kaio wishes YOU were a member of the YDC...

I have always considered Kaio an honorary Yokozuna :-).

And yes, if it was up to me, I would probably have promoted him in 2004. He would have missed out on his longevity records though...

[Asashosakari 18,997]

I really don't see what Asashoryu's case can possibly have to do here. Musashimaru and Takanohana were not just kyujo, but both were finished (Takanohana retired and Musashimaru never completed a basho again), and I don't think anyone has a single doubt that Asa would have been the next Yokozuna even if it took a basho or two more.

It's not just about Taka and Maru. There were also 4 ozeki on the banzuke besides Asashoryu, and in his back-to-back yusho performances he had a grand total of three bouts against them, two of them against the weakest of the four ozeki (Musoyama). That's a pretty huge case of fortunate timing. If you're going to anoint a Kise promotion in which Hakuho is absent as "a complete joke", then Asashoryu's was, too. Sure, history proved that right, but why should that count? After all, quite a few people here stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that history proved Kisenosato's ozeki promotion right, too.

Broadly speaking, for a fanbase that habitually considers the Kyokai bigshots as nothing but a group of old, inflexible fuddyduddies, it's rather odd how so many of those same fans are treating a bunch of completely arbitrary and often-changed promotion guidelines as the sumo equivalent of the Ten Commandments. Blind belief in numbers is no substitute for insight.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Asashosakari

[dingo 1,212]

...but in my book his 5 yusho are enough to justify the tsuna around his (HMF) waist, no matter his other results.

I bet Kaio wishes YOU were a member of the YDC...

I have always considered Kaio an honorary Yokozuna :-).

And yes, if it was up to me, I would probably have promoted him in 2004. He would have missed out on his longevity records though...

In my opinion Kaio the Yokozuna wouldn't be even half the legend that Kaio the Ozeki is. Maybe not even a quarter (perhaps something closer to 1/6th). Anyway, we'll never know, will we?

[krindel 671]

I really don't see what Asashoryu's case can possibly have to do here. Musashimaru and Takanohana were not just kyujo, but both were finished (Takanohana retired and Musashimaru never completed a basho again), and I don't think anyone has a single doubt that Asa would have been the next Yokozuna even if it took a basho or two more.

It's not just about Taka and Maru. There were also 4 ozeki on the banzuke besides Asashoryu, and in his back-to-back yusho performances he had a grand total of three bouts against them, two of them against the weakest of the four ozeki (Musoyama). That's a pretty huge case of fortunate timing. If you're going to anoint a Kise promotion in which Hakuho is absent as "a complete joke", then Asashoryu's was, too. Sure, history proved that right, but why should that count? After all, quite a few people here stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that history proved Kisenosato's ozeki promotion right, too.

Broadly speaking, for a fanbase that habitually considers the Kyokai bigshots as nothing but a group of old, inflexible fuddyduddies, it's rather odd how so many of those same fans are treating a bunch of completely arbitrary and often-changed promotion guidelines as the sumo equivalent of the Ten Commandments. Blind belief in numbers is no substitute for insight.

The "complete joke" comment was refering to him ending up keeping his current 3 loss record this time around with a Hakuho fusenpai (which would mean that the "at least he beat both yokozuna" argument would go south), but that seems not to be happening after all anyway, so he'll have to at least beat Hak to keep his run.

In any case, we have three more days to see if he can end up 12-3, and then we have a whole month and a half to argue about his promotion chances :-)

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Endo unstoppable - 12-1 now.

Another win for Oosunaarashi too - 9-6, and following an unexpected request this morn set to feature in a flight magazine around the time of the Aki Basho.

[krindel 671]

Takanoiwa is really making an effort to turn a sure promotion into a thriller, isn't he?

[ChrisC 7]

What's the status of Hakuho's injury today?

[Kuroyama 715]

What's the status of Hakuho's injury today?

Has an injury been officially acknowledged?

[Itachi 395]

...but in my book his 5 yusho are enough to justify the tsuna around his (HMF) waist, no matter his other results.

I bet Kaio wishes YOU were a member of the YDC...

I have always considered Kaio an honorary Yokozuna :-).

And yes, if it was up to me, I would probably have promoted him in 2004. He would have missed out on his longevity records though...

In my opinion Kaio the Yokozuna wouldn't be even half the legend that Kaio the Ozeki is. Maybe not even a quarter (perhaps something closer to 1/6th). Anyway, we'll never know, will we?

I agree about Kaio the Ozeki. I think his legacy would have been diminished by a promotion to Yokozuna. Similarly, I remember Wakanohana (the most recent) as a really solid Ozeki but unfortunately, he became the weakest Yokozuna I've seen since I began watching (1997). I remember the basho he earned that promotion. There was a bout vs Musashimaru that looked very unconvincing. Until then, I was willing to suspend disbelief but after that, I believed that some bouts were being staged to manufacture certain outcomes.

Musashimaru got his turn later but his wins leading to Yokozuna promotion and his performance as Yokozuna were more convincing. It seemed to me that he was convinced that he needed to wait his turn before unleashing his full Yokozuna level power.

If it's all staged for us then I'm disappointed but still entertained much of the time. Hopefully the staged incidents are limited and most of what we see is authentic competition.

This is veering off-topic but I wanted to respond to the comment about an Ozeki legacy potentially being worth more than a Yokozuna promotion that leads to a weak run at that rank.

[Kintamayama 44,652]

Endo unstoppable - 12-1 now.

Another win for Oosunaarashi too - 9-6, and following an unexpected request this morn set to feature in a flight magazine around the time of the Aki Basho.

9-4 sir..

[Kintamayama 44,652]

What's the status of Hakuho's injury today?

Has an injury been officially acknowledged?

No, he'll be there.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Endo unstoppable - 12-1 now.

Another win for Oosunaarashi too - 9-6, and following an unexpected request this morn set to feature in a flight magazine around the time of the Aki Basho.

9-4 sir..

9-6 is his record two days from now.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho looks crippled.

[krindel 671]

Looks like both Sekiwake are having a serious shot at KK after all.

Goeido is having Aoiyama tomorrow, and maybe one of Gagamaru / Kyokutenho for Day 15? In any case no matter who of the remaining rikishi he is paired against, two wins is not beyond the real of possibility. Last basho he saved his rank with a last day win despite a bad 2-6 finish. Looks like this time he's trying to do it the other way around :-)

For Myogiryu it is, of course, even better, as he only needs one win and I think he can do that already with Ikioi tomorrow...

[Nabuko 11]

Hakuho won Kootoshu somehow including grabbing injured hand etc. But yusho is yusho.