Rise and Decline of the Caucasians

[Vikanohara 171]

Two years ago, all of them were in first 3 levels. About one year ago, half of the pack was between Ozeki & Maegashira 2. But it started to go horribly wrong then. By next basho there could be only one left in Makuuchi.

Nagoya 2000 (Akebono winning his penultimate Yusho, Asashoryu becoming a sekitori)

**|***|***|****|*****|******|** Jk23W Orora (RUS) promoting

Haru 2001 (newcomer Ama winning the Jonokuchi Yusho, while Kaio his 2nd Makuuchi Yusho)

**|***|***|****|*****|***** Jd89E Orora (RUS)

Hatsu 2002 (Tochiazuma's first Yusho, in absence of both Yokozuna)

**|***|***|****|* Sd14W Kokkai (GEO) 2nd Yusho in a row, hitting the wall the next basho

**|***|***|****|*****|** Jd35W Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****|******|** Jk29W Takanoyama (CZE) promoting, alongside f.i. Kakuryu, Yusho to Anju (Sd94)

Hatsu 2003 (the end of Takanohana, Yokozuna promotion for Asashoryu)

**|***|***|* Ms6W Kokkai (GEO) 6-1 Makushita Yusho, though no promotion yet

**|***|***|****| Ms49W Roho (RUS) after having taken off with 2 Yusho and a 6-1

**|***|***|****|*** Sd56W Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|**** Sd64W Hakurozan (RUS) taking a giant leap, leaving the Yusho to Tokitenku

**|***|***|****|*****| Sd83W Takanoyama (CZE) demoting

**|***|***|****|*****|*** Jd44W Amuru (RUS) hitting the wall here

**|***|***|****|*****|******|** Jk30W Kotooshu (BUL) Jonokuchi Yusho, his 2nd coming in high Makushita

Kyushu 2003 (when we waved goodbye to Musashimaru & Sentoryu)

**|***|* J2W Kokkai (GEO) Juryo Yusho

**|***|***|* Ms5E Roho (RUS) promotion (alongside Hakuho), hitting the wall 2 basho later

**|***|***|** Ms21W Kotooshu (BUL)

**|***|***|*** Ms33W Hakurozan (RUS) having hit the wall 2 basho earlier

**|***|***|****|* Sd16E Takanoyama (CZE) making a big drop, followed by promotion

**|***|***|****|*****| Sd83W Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****| Sd96W Orora (RUS)

Nagoya 2004 (Estonians making their appearance)

**|* M2E Kokkai (GEO) 8-7, but no promotion

**|***|* J1E Roho (RUS) promotion during 4x 10-5 in a row

**|***|* J3E Kotooshu (BUL) Juryo Yusho

**|***|***|* Ms5W Hakurozan (RUS) promotion

**|***|***|****|* Sd9W Takanoyama (CZE) just missing out on repromotion

**|***|***|****|** Sd34E Kazafuzan (KAZ) hitting the wall here

**|***|***|****|*** Sd52W Orora (RUS) making a big drop

**|***|***|****|*****| Sd89E Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****|******|** Jk40E Baruto (EST) Yusho, followed by an other one

**|***|***|****|*****|******|** Jk40W Kitaoji (EST) promoting, immediately followed by intai

Hatsu 2005 (Kisenosato reaching Makuuchi with only a Makushita Yusho, Kotoshogiku even without)

**|* M3W Kokkai (GEO)

**|* M4E Kotooshu (BUL) promoting to Komusubi, hitting the wall there

**|* M5E Roho (RUS)

**|***|** J7E Hakurozan (RUS) taking a giant leap

**|***|***|****|* Sd6E Baruto (EST) promoting, leaving the Yusho to Nakanokuni

**|***|***|****|** Sd24E Amuru (RUS) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd28W Takanoyama (CZE) promoting

**|***|***|****|*** Sd42E Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|****|*** Sd47W Orora (RUS)

Aki 2005 (welcome Wakanoho & Masutoo)

**| SE Kotooshu (BUL) 2nd of 3 Jun-Yusho in a row

**|* M2W Kokkai (GEO) just after his first Sansho

**|** M10W Roho (RUS) just after an injury

**|***| M12E Hakurozan (RUS)

**|***|***| J14W Baruto (EST) 12-3 upon his arrival in Juryo, dropping out next basho

**|***|***|** Ms17W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|****| Ms53E Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|* Sd6E Kazafuzan (KAZ) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd33E Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****|** Jd26W Wakanoho (RUS) his only Yusho ever

**|***|***|****|*****|*** Jd53W Masutoo (HUN)

Aki 2006 (and now also Gagamaru & Tochinoshin, meanwhile the first caucasian Ozeki)

* O2W Kotooshu (BUL)

**| KW Kokkai (GEO) even managing to stay up there

**|* M1E Baruto (EST) making a big drop due to injury

**|* M1W Roho (RUS) promoting to Komusubi for the 2nd time

**|** M10W Hakurozan (RUS) falling from M2 to M14

**|***|***|* Ms6E Wakanoho (RUS) 6-1, leaving the Yusho to Goeido, and no promotion yet

**|***|***|** Ms16E Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|** Ms29W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|****|* Sd16W Gagamaru (GEO) promoting, hitting the wall 2 basho later

**|***|***|****|** Sd24E Amuru (RUS) promoting

**|***|***|****|*** Sd49W Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|**** Sd72E Masutoo (HUN)

**|***|***|****|*****|*** Jd49W Tochinoshin (GEO) 7-0 and promoting, but leaving the Yusho to Tokitairyu

Natsu 2007 (3rd Yusho for Hakuho and promotion to Yokozuna, while we welcome Aran)

* O1W Kotooshu (BUL)

**|* M2E Kokkai (GEO) making a big drop

**|** M9E Roho (RUS) taking a giant leap

**|***|* J2W Hakurozan (RUS) promoting

**|***|***| J11W Baruto (EST) Juryo Yusho in between some injuries

**|***|***| J13E Wakanoho (RUS) taking a giant leap, after having hit the wall in Hatsu

**|***|***|** Ms28E Tochinoshin (GEO)

**|***|***|*** Ms45W Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|****| Ms46W Gagamaru (GEO)

**|***|***|****|* Sd3E Takanoyama (CZE) promoting

**|***|***|****|* Sd3W Masutoo (HUN) just missing out on promotion

**|***|***|****|* Sd10E Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|** Sd23E Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****|** Jd26W Aran (RUS) promoting, leaving the Yusho to Yamamotoyama

Natsu 2008 (first caucasian Yusho !)

* O2W Kotooshu (BUL) Yusho after an injury

**|* M1E Kokkai (GEO) making a big drop, after a Jun-Yusho

**|* M1W Baruto (EST) after 2 Jun-Yusho just before

**|* M2W Wakanoho (RUS) one basho prior to his forced intai

**|** M9W Roho (RUS) one basho prior to his forced intai

**|***| M14E Tochinoshin (GEO) hitting the wall here

**|***| M15E Hakurozan (RUS) demoting, one basho prior to his forced intai

**|***|***|* Ms2W Aran (RUS) promoting

**|***|***|** Ms23E Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|** Ms23W Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|*** Ms35E Gagamaru (GEO)

**|***|***|****|* Sd1E Takanoyama (CZE) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd32W Masutoo (HUN)

**|***|***|****|** Sd44W Orora (RUS)

Hatsu 2009 (Asashoryu coming back from injury with another Yusho)

* O2E Kotooshu (BUL) 10-5 after a couple of 8-7

**| SE Baruto (EST)

**|* M4W Kokkai (GEO)

**|** M6W Aran (RUS) hitting the wall here

**|***| M11W Tochinoshin (GEO)

**|***|***|* Ms9W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|* Ms13E Gagamaru (GEO) taking a giant leap

**|***|***|** Ms17W Kazafuzan (KAZ) making a big drop, followed by long injury

**|***|***|*** Ms43W Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|* Sd9W Masutoo (HUN) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd21W Orora (RUS) promoting

Hatsu 2010 (Asashoryu's 25th and final Yusho, as he is forced to intai !)

* O1E Kotooshu (BUL) when 9-6 & 10-5 were regular

**| SE Baruto (EST) 1st Jun-Yusho as Sanyaku, followed by another & promotion

**|* M1W Tochinoshin (GEO)

**|** M9E Kokkai (GEO)

**|** M10W Aran (RUS) taking a giant leap, followed by a nasty drop & two Jun-Yusho

**|***|***| J13E Gagamaru (GEO) winning the Juryo Yusho

**|***|***|* Ms6W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|** Ms25W Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|****|* Sd2E Masutoo (HUN) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd30E Aoiyama (BUL) promoting, in between 3 Yusho, leaving this Yusho to Hitachigo

**|***|***|****|*** Sd59W Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****| Sd98E Kazafuzan (KAZ) taking a giant leap, after a long absence

Kyushu 2010 (only a 14-1 Yusho to Hakuho after 4 zensho in a row, having lost to Kisenosato on day 2)

* O1E Kotooshu (BUL) 8-7, in between 3x 10-5

* O1W Baruto (EST) 11-4, not so long after his promotion

**| KE Aran (RUS) making a big drop

**| KW Tochinoshin (GEO)

**|** M6E Kokkai (GEO) making a big drop

**|** M10E Gagamaru (GEO)

**|***|***|* Ms3E Aoiyama (BUL) just missing out on promotion

**|***|***|* Ms14W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|** Ms28E Amuru (RUS) injured

**|***|***|** Ms28W Masutoo (HUN) making a big drop

**|***|***|****|* Sd16W Kazafuzan (KAZ) promoting

**|***|***|****|** Sd36W Orora (RUS)

Kyushu 2011 (the year without Haru basho)

* O1E Baruto (EST) 11-4, just before his only Yusho

* O2E Kotooshu (BUL) 9-6, followed by 10-5 in Hatsu

**|* M2E Tochinoshin (GEO) making a big drop

**|* M3E Aran (RUS) making a big drop

**|* M3W Gagamaru (GEO) making a big drop

**|** M10E Kokkai (GEO) making a big drop

**|***| M16E Aoiyama (BUL) taking a giant leap

**|***|* J3W Takanoyama (CZE) promoting

**|***|***|* Ms2W Amuru (RUS) promoting, but soon followed by a long injury

**|***|***|** Ms16W Kazafuzan (KAZ) making a big drop

**|***|***|*** Ms43E Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|*** Ms44W Masutoo (HUN)

Aki 2012 (Harumafuji's 2nd zensho Yusho in a row)

* O2W Baruto (EST) went kyujo, and again in Kyushu

* O3E Kotooshu (BUL) went kyujo once again

**| KE Aoiyama (BUL) making a big drop

**| KW Tochinoshin (GEO)

**|* M2E Aran (RUS) making a big drop

**|* M2W Gagamaru (GEO) making a big drop

**|***| M16E Takanoyama (CZE) demoting

**|***|***| J12E Kokkai (GEO) going intai

**|***|***|** Ms24E Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|****|** Sd23W Amuru (RUS) injured

**|***|***|****|*** Sd43E Orora (RUS)

**|***|***|****|*****|*****| Jd96E Masutoo (HUN) injured

Kyushu 2013

* O2W Kotooshu (BUL) awaiting demotion

**|* intai Baruto (EST)

**|* M5E Aoiyama (BUL)

**|***| M13W Gagamaru (GEO) struggling to stay in Makuuchi

**|***| M16E Aran (RUS) going intai

**|***|***| J14W Tochinoshin (GEO) injured

**|***|***|* Ms2W Takanoyama (CZE)

**|***|***|* Ms9W Amuru (RUS)

**|***|***|*** Ms33W Masutoo (HUN)

**|***|***|*** Ms38E Kazafuzan (KAZ)

**|***|***|****|* Sd5W Orora (RUS)

I wonder what a further decline will do for ozumo following outside Japan. But at least there are a few more foreigners (not counting the Mongolians & Chinese) to look out for, with Osunaarashi (EGY) & Musashikuni (USA). While Kaisei (BRA) is still out there as well.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Vikanohara

[Andreas21 183]

Thanks for the effort!

Surely it reflects the effect of the one per Heya rule. Since essentially all places are occupied, only for really outstanding foreigners (such as Osunaarashi), Ozumo is an option at all. That works back to the young people at the decision whether to envision a professional sports career in Sumo. So a further decline is programmed: too few promising young foreigners can have a try.

In fact, all nations except Mongolia and Japan sitting in the same boat here. Mongolia suffers from the rule as well, but the similarity of Mongolian wrestling to Sumo, and the two great Mongolian Yokozuna (I mean Asashoryu of course) make a difference.

I wonder what a further decline will do for ozumo following outside Japan.

In question is more the degree of decline of interest. I remember some discussion of Sumo as possibly Olympic. This is kind of funny: the world's sports entertainment business is dominated by Europe and USA, but these people are actively barred from participating in the world's only professional league.

The more interesting question is rather what a further decline will do for Ozumo following inside Japan. My take: it is one of the main contributors for the negative trend in attendance.

My hopeless hope is that this stupidity will eventually be gone, ex-Musashimaru makes the stable for the Americans and the then-ex-Kotooshu one for the Europeans and Sumo will flourish.

[yorikiried by fate 2,001]

Caucasians?! Are you serious? It's a lazy term that avoids using the alternative "white".

But even if you don't care about stepping into this particular trap of misperceiving the entity formerly known as ethinicity: WTF is Orora doing in your list?! I mean, have you ever seen Orora? Oh wait, I know: he's Russian by passport, so he is Caucasian, right?

You know, I'm sure you - as most people in this place - are not a racist. But beware of racist terms. Even of those that you might have heard on American TV series. Thinking about it, "racism" is a racist term as well, as it implies the existence of races in the first place. "Ethnic chauvinism" isn't exactly a tongue pleaser, is it?

[Vikanohara 171]

I had no race discussion at all in mind. Just wanted to name the rikishi coming from a particular geographical region in the world.

[Koorifuu 924]

I highly appreciate the work put into the topic and I definitely can see where you're going with it. There's a massive decline on European / Caucasian (and I mean the geographical way of being from Caucasus like Georgia or Ossetia, not racial) and only Aoiyama appears to stand out otherwise.

However I agree on that "Caucasian" was a poor choice for a term... Not all are geographically Caucasian (there are east Europeans and Kazakhs in there), and not all are racially Caucasian (Orora and Kazafuzan look Asian-ish). So you can apply neither. I'm not even going to poke on the racism debate though.

[Andreas21 183]

Osunaarashi, Kaisei, Musashikuni should belong to the team, the former two even strictly belonging to the now deprecated Caucasian definition.

Reading the thread title I first thought of Arans intai, the Sekitori drop of Tochinoshin and the poor performances of Gagamaru possibly ending the ten-year presence of Caucasian people (in the narrow sense) in Makuuchi.

[Asashosakari 18,995]

The more interesting question is rather what a further decline will do for Ozumo following inside Japan. My take: it is one of the main contributors for the negative trend in attendance.

You seriously believe that Japanese people are staying away from the honbasho because there aren't enough European and American rikishi?!

(Not to mention that there's no "negative trend". It's stable at a low level.)

[Asashosakari 18,995]

In any case, I suspect a major reason why the influx of European rikishi has dwindled is that the international amateur sumo scene has been such a mess in recent years and it's no longer the high-profile stage for international newcomers to present themselves, the way it was when Baruto and Aran were amateurs. Perhaps Mark can weigh in, he's been keeping a much closer eye on the situation.

[Kaioshoryu 62]

The more interesting question is rather what a further decline will do for Ozumo following inside Japan. My take: it is one of the main contributors for the negative trend in attendance.

You seriously believe that Japanese people are staying away from the honbasho because there aren't enough European and American rikishi?!(Not to mention that there's no "negative trend". It's stable at a low level.)

Exactly. Isn't the only hope of ozumo gaining popularity more competitive japanese rikishi?

[Koorifuu 924]

The more interesting question is rather what a further decline will do for Ozumo following inside Japan. My take: it is one of the main contributors for the negative trend in attendance.

You seriously believe that Japanese people are staying away from the honbasho because there aren't enough European and American rikishi?!(Not to mention that there's no "negative trend". It's stable at a low level.)

Exactly. Isn't the only hope of ozumo gaining popularity more competitive japanese rikishi?

That's what we're usually made to believe, but judging from the way Osunaarashi and Takanoyama are cheered on because they stand out, I'd say the current Japanese crowds are way more westernized than before and the dwindling in popularity wouldn't be solved necessarily with more Japanese yusho contenders.

[Benevolance 2,484]

Maybe Japanese fans just want to be entertained and so they cheer for the entertaining wrestlers? I know that's what I like, and I don't much care where they come from.

Maybe this will at least put to rest the notion that bigger/stronger foreign wrestlers can come in and dominate sumo with size alone? There is more to athleticisim in the sport than simply size alone, and most seem to struggle against equally-strong and better skilled opponents with lower centers of gravity. But hey, I'm preaching to the choir. You guys already know how awesome sumo is.

[rzombie1988 157]

I think Sumo is screwing itself with the one foreigner only rule. I'm not saying gaijin are game changers but they do make things a little more interesting. I also don't think it's fair to discriminate due to nationality, but yeah welcome to Japan. One thing sumo should also keep in mind is that has the oppurtunity to attract different people from all over the world due to it being basically free to do and due to the fact that anyone could realistically do it. The one foreigner only rule though isn't going to help.

Finding a Japanese yokozuna might help out things a little but I don't think it will make a huge difference. The same people who watch are going to continue to watch and most likely, the people that don't watch still won't be watching. Makuuchi's starting time is always going to hurt it these days at the gate and on TV and many people are still turned off by it due to the scandals. Add in the fact that people have a million ways of entertaining themselves and I just see things staying as they are.

Edited November 15, 2013 by rzombie1988

[Asashosakari 18,995]

That's what we're usually made to believe, but judging from the way Osunaarashi and Takanoyama are cheered on because they stand out, I'd say the current Japanese crowds are way more westernized than before and the dwindling in popularity wouldn't be solved necessarily with more Japanese yusho contenders.

That's because one of them is the first rikishi from a completely new area and the other is a unique fighter.

Ozumo may be an individual competitors' sport, but from the audience point of view it's no different from team sports - people like to root for athletes from their own area. The adage "the hometown sandanme is preferred to the Edo ozeki" is no less true today than it was a hundred years ago, the only difference is that "hometown" has been extended a bit to also mean connections through high school and university sumo clubs.

Foreign rikishi with star appeal such as Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kotooshu and Baruto will manage to attract significant numbers of Japanese fans, sure. But random rank-and-file maegashira? Almost nobody in Japan is going to miss Aran now that he's gone, almost nobody is going to miss Asasekiryu once he is gone, nobody will shed a tear if Gagamaru drops back to juryo this basho, and Aoiyama's Japanese fan support outside of Kasugano-beya koenkai members is probably negligible, too. I know many people here don't like to hear it, but Ozumo doesn't "need" foreign rikishi in the mid-maegashira ranks (and lower) at all. All they do is block spots from Japanese rikishi who might actually sell some tickets to hometown supporters.

Osunaarashi will always have popularity even if he doesn't make ozeki because he's "the first" and has been pushed by the press in the formative stages of his career. Fast forward 10 years and pretend there are now three or four more Egyptian rikishi in Ozumo - nobody's going to give much of a hoot about them in Japan, unless they actually go all the way to the top. That's just how it is.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Asashosakari

[krindel 671]

I agree with Asashosakari, the cheers Osunaarashi and Takanoyama get are for oddity value, which would disappear for subsequent similar rikishi.

That part is something professional wrestling has right. The crowd needs "faces" and "heels", needs diversity, and needs "odd" and immediately recognizable weirdos. I have no doubt that a good wrestler from sub saharan Africa would get as big a response (positive or negative) as Osunaarashi, as would an Indian, or a Native American, or anyone who stands out. So sumo WOULD benefit from a few more gaijin rikishi, but only if they are both good AND few enough to retain rarity value.

However, even in professional wrestling they know that the deep emotional support ALWAYS goes to the homeboys...

[Asashosakari 18,995]

So sumo WOULD benefit from a few more gaijin rikishi, but only if they are both good AND few enough to retain rarity value.

Cynically, the best way to raise the profile of foreign rikishi would probably be to keep the current foreigner quota, but fire any foreign rikishi who hasn't proved himself as a star after, say, five years, so his spot can be given to someone new. That would be the most likely approach to guarantee high quality and high visibility (for those who make it). I very much doubt that would go over well here, though.

[Vikanohara 171]

I actually used this map to 'build' the team I was looking out for :

So all the people coming from countries in red and red/white/brown striped.

Okay, so I was lenient to add Kazakhstan to it, as it's actually just outside.

I left Osunaarashi out as he's clearly coming up way after those others.

And from Egypt there's also only the northern part included.

As for the Russians, I know only a small part of Russia is striped, but feel free to leave Orora out. :-)

Edited November 15, 2013 by Vikanohara

[Manekineko 200]

One thing sumo should also keep in mind is that has the oppurtunity to attract different people from all over the world due to it being basically free to do and due to the fact that anyone could realistically do it. The one foreigner only rule though isn't going to help.

But why would sumo (or NHK, more precisely) want to attract people all over the world (and pay for their food and board)? It could be argued in the same vein that sumo should cater to non-Japanese sensibilities of foreign aspirants and enable them more attractive food and lodgings than chanko and communal sleeping it does now...

If the number of heya continues to dwindle (as larger heya are more sustainable, 'though we've seen a couple of new heya form lately), I'd be all for raising the foreigner quota too keep the influx possible. But removing the quota altogether? It'd be the death of sumo I fell in love with - purely statistically, it would soon be overrun by foreigners and slowly but surely lose it uniqueness and charm.

Not all discrimination and limits are bad, if they serve to preserve heritage that would otherwise be lost.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Manekineko
typos

[Surabuyan 6]

Please change the title with "Rise of Easteuropeans". Caucasian means nothing for me. Of all those, only Aran can be considered Caucassian, because he has a Dagestani family name, aka his origin is somewhere near Caucasus..

And you are not right for many things. Aoiyama is doing pretty well and he is a newcomer "white man". Another reason for having fewer white people in sumo is because every beya now wants Mongolians. The problem is the one-foreigner-rule.. If there can be 2 or more in a beya, be sure that we will see more white people in the upper divisions.

White people have the advantage of superior height and superior physical strength, and the disadvantage of having too long legs, but having too long arms is a big advantage too.

[Andreas21 183]

You seriously believe that Japanese people are staying away from the honbasho because there aren't enough European and American rikishi?!

This is not what I was saying. What I believe is that they stay away if they feel cheated - because they can not see the best Sumo possible. One aspect is that young hopeful foreigners are currently blocked (with very few exceptions, e.g. when a foreign Rikishi retires) from Ozumo (Yaocho being another important aspect).

So yes, seriously. Just belief, I do not know for sure. In the potential audience there are the nationalistic, attending mainly for the tradition, and then there are those interested in the sport as such. The former is hurt by the foreigners, the latter is hurt by any rule to block foreigners. Which is the larger? Does the Kyokai know, and does it care?

But one thing I'm very sure of. Japanese people are not stupid, and they are aware of what's going on in Sumo business. Better than we do.

the international amateur sumo scene has been such a mess in recent years and it's no longer the high-profile stage for international newcomers to present themselves, the way it was when Baruto and Aran were amateurs.

Back in these days, Ozumo was quite open to foreigners. It is almost closed now, and for sure it influences amateur Sumo negatively. It surely weighs heavily for talented children around the world who would rather choose another combat sport instead.

[Asashosakari 18,995]

What I believe is that they stay away if they feel cheated - because they can not see the best Sumo possible.

I'm sorry to say so, but I really do think you're projecting your own thoughts and preferences onto the average Japanese fan with everything you've written in this thread. The casual fans that are mainly responsible for the lower ticket sales compared to, say, the mid-1990s heydays are the type of people who would struggle to name any rikishi below ozeki, full stop. And you're expecting them to be concerned about something complex like the quality of the actual competition in relation to the hypothetical ideal?

Sumo simply isn't cool enough for mass appeal right now, and if anything the glut of fairly anonymous foreign rikishi who come across as "just there for the money" is making it worse, not better. That's even part of the outsized reactions Osunaarashi and Takanoyama are getting, I reckon - in both cases it's obvious even to casual fans that these two are in Ozumo despite some major hurdles (one being the first Muslim/first from Africa, the other being too skinny for his own good). That sets them apart from the Arans and Gagamarus and Tokitenkus and Tamawashis and and and...

Back in these days, Ozumo was quite open to foreigners. It is almost closed now, and for sure it influences amateur Sumo negatively. It surely weighs heavily for talented children around the world who would rather choose another combat sport instead.

Just about every foreign Ozumo rikishi did choose a different combat sport originally, and nearly all the non-Mongolians only ended up in sumo in a roundabout way (injury, got too heavy, not good enough, etc.). 99.999% of athletic children outside of Japan aren't ever thinking about taking up sumo, most probably don't even know the sport exists, and that was true 10 years ago (when "Ozumo was quite open") just as it's true now. You've got notions about both professional and amateur sumo that don't actually bear much resemblance to reality, quite frankly.

In a nutshell: Sumo just isn't anywhere near as important to the world as you seem to think it is. And it never will be.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,995]

As a side note:

And you're expecting them to be concerned about something complex like the quality of the actual competition in relation to the hypothetical ideal?

The number of Japanese people who think that today's sumo sucks because "the rikishi are too fat now" is probably several orders of magnitude greater than the number of those who are worried about having not enough foreign rikishi in there. Edited November 16, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Benevolance 2,484]

I found that a lot of younger Japanese in the general admission section couldn't identify any of the wrestlers, ozeki included. On more than one day I would hand off my English program because, with the romaji, they could at least identify who was wrestling.

[ALAKTORN 346]

The number of Japanese people who think that today's sumo sucks because "the rikishi are too fat now" is probably several orders of magnitude greater than the number of those who are worried about having not enough foreign rikishi in there.

Really? I think the opposite. I look back to older matches, and think, “man, these guys are skinny, in today’s sumō they’d all be picked up and put outside the dohyō”.

A body like that of Hakuhō, I feel, is the epitome of power one should strive for in sumō. And I’m not saying that just because he’s up there with the greatest yokozuna.

Edited November 16, 2013 by ALAKTORN

[Andreas21 183]

I can only thank in the name of the forum community, that now I'm thoroughly debunked as hopelessly clueless, having an unsubstantiated, meaningless, worthless opinion. "Projecting" in the language of psychologists is the highest possible expression of disgust, reserved for the most crazy individuals, and well-deserved here. I can only express my pity to have stolen the time of a senior forum member who chose to carefully deconstruct this castle in the air instead of doing more gratifying work like to continue the more worthy "Heisei hopefuls" project. Read on with the knowledge that these are mind games from an individual having no idea what he is talking about.

That being said, I would like to add some aspects to the point, that the one-per-heya rule is doing harm to amateur Sumo. One is an interview of Jaroslav Poříz who was very emotional at the time when he succeded to place one of his trainees in Ozumo. He was rating this higher than any of his own successes which had been quite a few. This was at a time when the young Pavel just arrived in Japan. You can guess he was also emotional when later he reached the highest division. He is still involved in Sumo training. I can imagine how emotional he would be (remember I have no clue about it) telling to his trainees, that once he was able to send somebody to Japan, but he won't be able to do it again, due to this rule. I can also imagine the effect on his trainees (who belong to the beforementioned 0.001% of athletic children).

Another aspect is the new Oyataka, ex-Musashimaru, who took over his nephew to Ozumo. That might had some impact there in Hawaii, and maybe he has even another nephew who would like to have a try. Sadly, the uncle will have to pass as he is bound by this rule. The only thing he could recommend is his old pal Chad Rowan who had a bit of a career in related sports who might give him a hint.

Baruto will be returning to Estonia. Possibly he will not only be a farmer, maybe he will in his free time advise or even train young people. There was quite a stir-up in Estonia, and it is not unlikely, that some children heard about it and found fighting Baruto cool. But surely, Baruto can tell them, that he went over there in an easier time, but now they most likely won't be able to do this. And they should better get involved in something more realistic like strongman sports, where Estonia has a good tradition.

There were this diplomacy exchanges between Estonia and Japan when Baruto took the cup. I'm sure, some nice words were exchanged, bridging the cultures and such, and Sumo was the vehicle. The way things are, Sumo will not have this role anymore. Realistically, in the next years there will be one new foreigner per year (if at all) who will be Mongolian, and Mongolia already had this exchanges. So this connects to the title of the thread, Caucasians on the decline, and there is a simple reason for it.