Kakuryu as Yokozuna

[Treblemaker 254]

Fay, even though you're in the back, you still stand out. :-)

[Masumasumasu 902]

The outcome would have been different had Hakuho not been injured.

The Kyokai ought to be careful. Kimboshi are awfully expensive.

[shumitto 418]

  On 23/03/2014 at 23:33, Masumasumasu said:

The outcome would have been different had Hakuho not been injured.

The Kyokai ought to be careful. Kimboshi are awfully expensive.

Look at the bright side. It is better to have Kakuryu for a couple of years more than for 6 or 7.

But I am happy about his promotion. A third Mongolian Yokozuna is exactly what Ozumo needed.

[Torabayama 51]

First time we'll have more than 2 Yokozuna in around 14 years correct?

[Kurt Trendafilov 5]

I'm also very happy about that promotion because it'll make things much more interesting. Unless someone's a fan of particular rikishi or owns share of the kyokai, then why bother worrying form their standpoint. To a spectator, one more top dog is always welcome.

Anyway, I admit that I never would have guessed that he was up to it. I admire some of his traits, though - his not showing any emotion and staying calm even in key moments - that's champion material.

[kuroimori 1,634]

  On 24/03/2014 at 02:57, Torabayama said:

First time we'll have more than 2 Yokozuna in around 14 years correct?

Kyusho 2000 to be precise, actually all 3 Yoks were fighting (no kyujo).

Akebono won with a 14-1 result, while Musashimaru and Takanohana both finished at 11-4.

There were also 5 Ozeki on that banzuke (Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Dejima, Miyabiyama & Musoyama) and all of them sported a 9-6 score.

And also noteworthy, Wakanosato had his Sanyaku debut and finished strong with a 9-6 record from the Komusubi west slot - hear that, Endo?

Wow, what a basho that was! Too bad I only started following Ozumo 3 years later.

[Gusoyama 104]

Congratulations to Kakuryu. I didn't think he would be able to do it, but he did, and with flying colors. What a basho all around! And now we watch Goeido to see if he can make that jump to Ozeki.

I was amazed how much support Kakuryu was getting from the fans. I think they were just enjoying the excellent sumo this basho, as were we all.

[x77x 0]

one basho to get yokozuna!? I sure hope not...

[Kuroyama 715]

  On 24/03/2014 at 23:35, x77x said:

one basho to get yokozuna!? I sure hope not...

As I'm sure has been said at least once in this conversation, the criterion is two consecutive yusho or yusho-equivalent. "Yusho-equivalent" means, at a minimum, a jun-yusho achieved by a rikishi in a tie with the eventual winner, with the yusho decided by kettei-sen. In the Hatsu basho, both Kakuryu and Hakuho finished the basho with records of 14-1; Hakuho won by kettei-sen.

Does anyone know when an official word will be given, if it's coming at all?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Kuroyama

[Masumasumasu 902]

  On 24/03/2014 at 23:55, Kuroyama said:

  On 24/03/2014 at 23:35, x77x said:

one basho to get yokozuna!? I sure hope not...

As I'm sure has been said at least once in this conversation, the criterion is two consecutive yusho or yusho-equivalent. "Yusho-equivalent" means, at a minimum, a jun-yusho achieved by a rikishi in a tie with the eventual winner, with the yusho decided by kettei-sen. In the Hatsu basho, both Kakuryu and Hakuho finished the basho with records of 14-1; Hakuho won by kettei-sen.

Does anyone know when an official word will be given, if it's coming at all?

http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/sumo/news/20140325-OHT1T00035.htm

[kuroimori 1,634]

  On 25/03/2014 at 00:04, Masumasumasu said:

  On 24/03/2014 at 23:55, Kuroyama said:

  On 24/03/2014 at 23:35, x77x said:

one basho to get yokozuna!? I sure hope not...

As I'm sure has been said at least once in this conversation, the criterion is two consecutive yusho or yusho-equivalent. "Yusho-equivalent" means, at a minimum, a jun-yusho achieved by a rikishi in a tie with the eventual winner, with the yusho decided by kettei-sen. In the Hatsu basho, both Kakuryu and Hakuho finished the basho with records of 14-1; Hakuho won by kettei-sen.

Does anyone know when an official word will be given, if it's coming at all?

http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/sumo/news/20140325-OHT1T00035.htm

Already decided on Monday, Kakuryu will receive important early morning visitors on Wednesday.

He is said to perform the dohyo-iri Unryu-style.

[Benevolance 2,511]

If there was a time to make a yokozuna run, this was definitely it. Congrats to Kak for seizing the opportunity.

[ScreechingOwl 343]

I have to admit that before this basho I never considered Kakuryu a serious contender for yokozuna, but that doesn't mean he won't have a successful yokozuna career. Kudos to Fay for being a long standing supporter and also for being able to be part of his yusho victory celebration.

I'm glad the sumo association "broke" the two consecutive yusho "rule". As many people have pointed out, there never was a specific rule for two consecutive yusho, and, moreover, as long ago as March 2006 the two consecutive yusho requirement was publicly abandoned, when the council announced Tochizauma's yokozuna run was still intact despite his non-yusho 12-3 finish at Haru 2006. The fact that there will now be a few more yokozuna over time will be a good thing for sumo, not a negative one.

As for Kakuryu, I'm not a big fan of the large percentage of backward moving victories he has won over the last year, but he's always displayed ring smarts and I suspect we'll see less of that style in the future and that he will grow into the responsibilities associated with the top rank. I hope he has a long and successful yokozuna career as a mid-level yokozuna, a reasonable expectation for him. Ganbare!

[rzombie1988 159]

So, if we look at people who won a title, came in second place before or after it and took down a Yokozuna in their title run, we would have had these guys as Yokozuna in the 1900's:

Kaio - Would have gotten it in 2003 and 2004

Chiyotaikai - In 2002

Takanonomi - If you are being friendly in 1996 and extend it over 4 basho's(he won 1 and got 2nd in 2)

Konishiki - Should have been Yokozuna anyway in 1992 and easily would have been now

Hokutenyu - Questionable but in 1983 he won 1 and got 2nd in the tournament before it as a Sekiwake

Wakahaguro - In 1959 with a 13-2 Yusho and a 12-3 Jun-Yusho in the previous tournament. Only problem is he would have started this run as a Sekiwake.

Masuiyama in 1948/1949 - Debatable. He went 10-1 Yusho, 7-6, and 13-2 Yusho.

Shimizugawa - In 1932 he went 8-0 Yusho, 8-2 Jun Yusho, 10-1 Jun Yusho and 9-2 Yusho. I don't even think it is a question that he should have been promoted. He has one of the stronger cases. They said he didn't get the nod because of being from a small stable.

Toyokuni in 1929 - He went 9-2 Jun Yusho and 9-3 Yusho then did it again with an 8-3 Jun Yusho and a 9-2 Yusho. He did this in 5 tournaments and should get the nod.

Edited March 25, 2014 by rzombie1988

[shimodahito 317]

Izutsu Heya -- only 5 rikishi? Impressive to have a Yokozuna.... Best of luck to Kakuryu...

[Asashosakari 19,662]

  On 25/03/2014 at 03:45, rzombie1988 said:

So, if we look at people who won a title, came in second place before or after it and took down a Yokozuna in their title run ...

That's far too simplistic. The overall quality of non-yusho performances matters.

For a yusho the W-L record isn't important, or at least shouldn't be - it makes no sense to penalize the best rikishi of a basho for not having been even better. Fortunately, the YDC and the NSK seem to agree, given the Wakanohana3 promotion - his second yusho was only a 12-3, but it was hardly his fault that nobody else put together more than 11 wins.

On the other hand, while there's only one yusho winner per basho, there are always 41 rikishi who don't win the yusho, and it's silly to treat them as completely alike. The only objective measure we have for judging them are their win-loss records. And something like Kakuryu's 14-1 playoff loss is quite simply miles ahead of, say, Kaio's best-ever "tsunatori runner-up" score of 12-3 (which wasn't even good enough to get him into a playoff).

To not acknowledge that is intellectual laziness - laziness that the Kyokai itself finally started moving away from after nearly two decades (see ScreechingOwl's point about Tochiazuma, which IIRC was also applied to Kaio two years earlier), and that move has found its inevitable conclusion in Kakuryu's promotion now.

People forget that Futahaguro was a fine rikishi, and if he hadn't run into his off-dohyo trouble and had been able to see through a normal career, he'd almost certainly have lucked into a yusho or two in the following few years. (Heck, the Chiyonofuji machine probably would have made sure of it at some point...) If things had played out that way, nobody would ever have got the idea that yokozuna promotions must be "two yusho or bust" to begin with. It's a simple accident of history that has finally been overcome.

[Kuroyama 715]

  On 25/03/2014 at 03:45, rzombie1988 said:

So, if we look at people who won a title, came in second place before or after it and took down a Yokozuna in their title run, we would have had these guys as Yokozuna in the 1900's:

Quite possibly, but that's not the criterion they're using to promote Kakuryu.

[Kintamayama 45,530]

Kakuryuu will be doing his first dohyo-iri on the 28th (that's three days from today..) at the Meiji Jingu shrine and on the 30th at Ise Shrine.. Some logistic problems:

Problem 1: Kakuryuu needs the three-piece suit dohyo-iri garb (mitsuzoroi) that he and his two attendants wear during the ceremony. None in the Ichimon, as ties with ex-Kashiwado's family (the last Yokozuna to come out of Tokitsukaze Ichimon back in 1961) have not been maintained.

Solution 1: Borrow it from Kitanoumi rijicho, outside of the Ichimon.

Problem 2: Tokitsukaze Ichimon has not had a Yokozuna since 1961 (Kashiwado). Nobody there knows anything about doing the Unryu style dohyo-iri.

Solution 2: Ask Takanohana (outside of the Ichimon) to teach him.

Problem 3: Nobody in the Ichimon has any idea how to make an Unryuu style tsuna for the tsuna uchi.It is different in length etc. As both current Yokozuna use the Shiranui style, that won't help.

Solution 3: Go to Takasago beya (outside of the Ichimon..) where some of the guys used to make it for Asashouryuu, who did it the Unryuu way, and ask for their help.

Interesting piece of trivia that I did not know: In December of 2011 on the 100th anniversary of the great Futabayama's birthday, Hakuhou (who is his greatest fan) did a dohyo-iri Unryuu style!!! Back then he also was helped by the Takasago lads.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kintamayama

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Is stuff like this not printed on the back of cereal packs in Japan?

[kuroimori 1,634]

two words:

knowledge management...

(obviously not invented in Japan)

[Kintamayama 45,530]

  On 25/03/2014 at 06:59, yorikiried by fate said:

Is stuff like this not printed on the back of cereal packs in Japan?

Only on cereal killers.

[Asashosakari 19,662]

  On 25/03/2014 at 06:51, Kintamayama said:

Problem 1: Kakuryuu needs the three-piece suit dohyo-iri garb (mitsuzoroi) that he and his two attendants wear during the ceremony. None in the Ichimon, as ties with ex-Kashiwado's family (the last Yokozuna to come out of Tokitsukaze Ichimon back in 1961) have not been maintained.

Solution 1: Borrow it from Kitanoumi rijicho, outside of the Ichimon.

It appears he'll be using the set that was recently brought back to use by Kitanoumi himself, at his kanreki dohyo-iri last year.

The tsuna-uchi is taking place today (may in fact have happened already by now).

[Asashosakari 19,662]

According to YDC chairman Uchiyama some concerns were raised in the meeting about having a third concurrent foreign yokozuna, but with all three of them "well-attuned to Japanese culture"* it was deemed to be no issue. The meeting concluded with its unanimous vote of approval in only 11 minutes.

* Gee, at whom could this possibly be a veiled shot?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

I might be mistaken, but hasn't Kakuryu (along with Kyokutenho) been heralded some time ago to be speaking the best Japanese of all foreigners?

[Akinomaki 40,790]

  On 25/03/2014 at 07:55, Asashosakari said:

According to YDC chairman Uchiyama some concerns were raised in the meeting about having a third concurrent foreign yokozuna, but with all three of them "well-attuned to Japanese culture"* it was deemed to be no issue. The meeting concluded with its unanimous vote of approval in only 11 minutes.

Member Kōmura Masahiko was the one with a comment in that direction:

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2014/03/24/kiji/K20140324007839790.html

The papers reported yesterday that there was no objection at all.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Akinomaki