Aki 2014 Banzuke

[Kintamayama 45,520]

Another basho in Juryo will do good for Tochinoshin on his path to return to his former form.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

Another basho in Juryo will do good for Tochinoshin on his path to return to his former form.

And, as Gurowake said, good for his wallet too, now that all serious yusho contenders are gone.

If the bigwigs really wanted to reprimand him further, they only did him a favour.

[alaninjapan 18]

Just a guess, but I think if you asked Tochinoshin if he would rather be in Juryo, with a chance at more cash, or back in the top flight with the glory and a good shout at knocking over a bunch of the lower Maegashira, he would bite your hand off for the latter.

[krindel 675]

Just a guess, but I think if you asked Tochinoshin if he would rather be in Juryo, with a chance at more cash, or back in the top flight with the glory and a good shout at knocking over a bunch of the lower Maegashira, he would bite your hand off for the latter.

I think that when a guy in his prime drops that far down due to injury and comes back in obvious strength, its in the best interest of everyone (Kyokai included) that he gets back to his proper place as soon as possible. After all, what's the point of having him screw up all Juryo balance for a second time in a row? I really don't understand the idea behind that choice at all...

As for Tochiozan, I find really strange the difference in treatment between Goeido and him. Goeido has been given every lucky break in the banzuke making process that was even remotely available (even some that were not really available). Tochiozan on the other hand, gets this...

[shumitto 418]

Just a guess, but I think if you asked Tochinoshin if he would rather be in Juryo, with a chance at more cash, or back in the top flight with the glory and a good shout at knocking over a bunch of the lower Maegashira, he would bite your hand off for the latter.

I think that when a guy in his prime drops that far down due to injury and comes back in obvious strength, its in the best interest of everyone (Kyokai included) that he gets back to his proper place as soon as possible. After all, what's the point of having him screw up all Juryo balance for a second time in a row? I really don't understand the idea behind that choice at all...

I am not sure about this. Having a solid rikishi in Juryo, even if is just a foreigner, might work as a fan magnet somehow. The banzuke, however, was harsh not only on him, but on others as well, as discussed, so I think it is just bad luck and nothing else.

And Takekaze managed it after all. Sekiwake debut at the tender age of 35. Good luck for him.

[krindel 675]

Just a guess, but I think if you asked Tochinoshin if he would rather be in Juryo, with a chance at more cash, or back in the top flight with the glory and a good shout at knocking over a bunch of the lower Maegashira, he would bite your hand off for the latter.

I think that when a guy in his prime drops that far down due to injury and comes back in obvious strength, its in the best interest of everyone (Kyokai included) that he gets back to his proper place as soon as possible. After all, what's the point of having him screw up all Juryo balance for a second time in a row? I really don't understand the idea behind that choice at all...

I am not sure about this. Having a solid rikishi in Juryo, even if is just a foreigner, might work as a fan magnet somehow.

Last basho it was lucky that Ichinojo was there to give meaning to the Juryo Yusho race. This time its quite probable that we'll get a repeat of Homasho and his stroll around the dohyo in March... Not really sure if its in the best interest of anyone if that happens. Especially since Homasho is a very very popular rikishi, Tochinosin is not.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

As for Tochiozan, I find really strange the difference in treatment between Goeido and him. Goeido has been given every lucky break in the banzuke making process that was even remotely available (even some that were not really available). Tochiozan on the other hand, gets this...

And it's not the first time either.

after Nagoya 2012:

Sw Tochiozan 4-11 -> M5e

Kw Toyonoshima 5-10 -> M3w

after Natsu 2013:

Sw Baruto 3-5-7 -> M6e

Kw Okinoumi 4-11 -> M6w

Both done by the same shimpan crew. (Though a different one than the latest mess.)

I am not sure about this. Having a solid rikishi in Juryo, even if is just a foreigner, might work as a fan magnet somehow. The banzuke, however, was harsh not only on him, but on others as well, as discussed, so I think it is just bad luck and nothing else.

I've already alluded as much in my earlier reply to Chiyozakura - there are banzuke breaks (good and bad) that are unavoidable, and then there are banzuke breaks that are simply the result of bad work or intentional meddling. The latter is no more a case of "bad luck" than if somebody steals your wallet.

For comparison I offer:

actual: fair:

Tokushoryu J1 Amuru Tokushoryu (M10e 4-11) J1 Tochinoshin (J12e 13-2)

Homarefuji J2 Sotairyu Amuru (J6e 10-5) J2 Tosayutaka (J8w 11-4)

Shotenro J3 Gagamaru Homarefuji (J4w 9-6) J3 Sotairyu (J1e 7-8)

Tosayutaka J4 Kotoyuki Shotenro (J4e 8-7) J4 Gagamaru (M15e 5-10)

Wakanosato J5 Tochinoshin Wakanosato (M16e 5-10) J5 Kotoyuki (J5w 8-7)

-0.5 Tokushoryu -0.5 Tokushoryu

-0.5 Amuru -0.5 Tochinoshin

-0.5 Homarefuji -1.0 Amuru

-0.5 Sotairyu -1.0 Tosayutaka

0.0 Shotenro -1.5 Homarefuji

0.0 Gagamaru -1.5 Sotairyu

-2.5 Tosayutaka -1.0 Shotenro

0.0 Kotoyuki -1.0 Gagamaru

-0.5 Wakanosato -0.5 Wakanosato

-4.5 Tochinoshin -1.0 Kotoyuki

==== ====

-9.5 -9.5

You can flip a few rikishi pairs in the fairer version to make it more "realistic", but even by doing that you'd still not get anywhere near the chaotic solution they produced.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,100]

I don't see what the big deal over Tochiozan is. My GTB entry had him ranked 8w, one step lower than he ended up, and if I hadn't been so optimistic about Ichinojo's debut position I'd have had him exactly right. The two most recent 2 win sekiwakes who withdrew were both Tochiazuma, and while he ended up ranked much higher than Tochiozan is now, after looking at the banzuke in both cases he fit exactly where he deserved to be in relation to the other rikishi; in both cases they were really stretching to fill those spots just below him. With Tochiozan, who should he have definitely been ranked higher than based solely on the results? Ok, he probably falls to about the same spot as Aminishiki, Shohozan, and Chiyootori if you count the sanyaku ranks as worth 2 Maegashira ranks, but under the apparent guiding principle for this banzuke the rikishi with the better result gets the better spot, as evident by Tokushoryu vs. Kagamio, Azumaryu vs. Kyokushuho, and Chiyotairyu vs. Terunofuji, they all get ranked higher than him.

Now he's clearly a better rikishi than those 3 mentioned, but the banzuke making process is quite clearly not about who is the better rikishi, but who has performed the best recently. So really the main complaints are more like "Why do they treat guys that get injured so harshly?" The Kyokai's decision to treat an absence as a loss is fully understandable from the perspective of looking at actual recent achievements. There also is some merit to the belief that just being injured causes a potential loss in ability as a rikishi; serious injuries many times do not fully heal and even if the pain goes away there may be some movement restriction or loss of strength. The abolishment of the kosho rule shows they have absolutely no sympathy for those who get hurt, and the apparent lack of safety features around the dohyo* shows they just don't care about the health of the individual rikishi; if some guy gets hurt, someone else will just take his place.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Gurowake

[Asashosakari 19,651]

With Tochiozan, who should he have definitely been ranked higher than based solely on the results? Ok, he probably falls to about the same spot as Aminishiki, Shohozan, and Chiyootori if you count the sanyaku ranks as worth 2 Maegashira ranks, but under the apparent guiding principle for this banzuke the rikishi with the better result gets the better spot, as evident by Tokushoryu vs. Kagamio, Azumaryu vs. Kyokushuho, and Chiyotairyu vs. Terunofuji, they all get ranked higher than him.

It's not so much that Tochiozan is ranked too low as such, it's that he's ranked too low in comparison to Aminishiki. Makekoshi komusubi and sekiwake typically get treated very leniently - in comparison to makekoshi maegashira it's roughly: 1 win = 1 rank, as opposed to the usual 2 ranks (or ~ 1.5 ranks in the meatgrinder), so you'd expect Tochiozan to end up just behind Aminishiki, and probably ahead of Kaisei and Shohozan (just like Aminishiki), especially as the demotions for K/S are quite small anyway.

I'll admit that it's not a clear-cut case, but considering they added an outright insult to it (placing him behind Chiyootori who wasn't even in the joi), it's hard to avoid the impression that they went out of their way to put Tochiozan as low as possible.

[Naganoyama 5,947]

Maybe Kasugano is the one being castigated for something.

[Ayagawa 14]

Maybe Kasugano is the one being castigated for something.

Maybe it's not Tochiozan/Kasugano being castigated, but Amininishiki being gerrymandered (Eh?)

Terunofuji versus Chiyotairyu for slot #2 is a real toss-up. Terunofuji did have the somewhat harder schedule, but it's an area of the banzuke where they normally don't seem to spend much time worrying about such details. Nevertheless, my guess is that Terunofuji will get the nod, not least because he's a member of chief shimpan Isegahama's stable.

What went wrong?

Chief Shimpan Isegahama doesn't seem to give a competitive edge to his rikishi over the others... (Scratching chin...)

[Naganoyama 5,947]

Terunofuji is merely one of his deshi. Aminishiki is his nephew. ;-)

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Hiho! Did I miss anything? Did Goeido finally drop out of his somewhat sticky Sekiwake slot?

[Couginishiki 33]

Hiho! Did I miss anything? Did Goeido finally drop out of his somewhat sticky Sekiwake slot?

That's one way of looking at it...

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Stuff I noticed while updating stuff:

With 39 members of that group we have the lowest number of foreigners (banzuke interpretation; includes Kyokutenho e.g.) on a banzuke since March 2001. Alltime high was November 2006 with 63.

For the first time since November 2004 there are no foreigners in the ranks between Yokozuna and Maegashira.

That should teach us all a lesson or two.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

For the first time ever there are three foreigners as yokozuna, and the number of foreigners among sekitori is at an all-time high.

Sorry, but I don't understand which lesson you wanted to teach.

[Tsubame 368]

Has Sokokurai the Japanese Citizenship?

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

For the first time ever there are three foreigners as yokozuna, and the number of foreigners among sekitori is at an all-time high.

Sorry, but I don't understand which lesson you wanted to teach.

Strictly speaking, this is the third banzuke with three foreign Yokozuna. The second part is true, even though it's a shared lead with four other previous instances.

There's no lesson after all.

[Vikanohara 171]

Stuff I noticed while updating stuff:

With 39 members of that group we have the lowest number of foreigners (banzuke interpretation; includes Kyokutenho e.g.) on a banzuke since March 2001. Alltime high was November 2006 with 63.

For the first time since November 2004 there are no foreigners in the ranks between Yokozuna and Maegashira.

That should teach us all a lesson or two.

For the first time ever there are three foreigners as yokozuna, and the number of foreigners among sekitori is at an all-time high.

Sorry, but I don't understand which lesson you wanted to teach.

All three are interesting facts if you ask me. :)

And there are so many more interesting things to look forward to after this basho (and it's not even over yet), for instance :

MAKUUCHI

- which 4 from these 8 : Aoiyama, Ikioi, Aminishiki, Ichinojo, Takekaze, Takayasu, Takarafuji, Yoshikaze to fill the Sekiwake & Komusubi slots ?

- could be a career high for Aoiyama, Ikioi, Takarafuji & certainly for Ichinojo as well of course (probably a record for the latter ?)

- for Aminishiki it could be a 16th basho at a Sanyaku rank (I wonder what's the record of basho at a S/K rank without becoming Ozeki, perhaps held by Wakanosato with 26 basho ?)

- how far will Myogiryu, Chiyotairyu, Jokoryu, Endo, Terunofuji, Toyonoshima & Osunaarashi all drop ?

- probably all behind 4 from the 8 mentioned above plus Tochiozan and possibly also Toyohibiki/Kaisei/Shohozan/Chiyootori, depending on their final two days

- are Sadanoumi & Sokukurai going to reach new personal highs ?

- how much of safe ground is veteran Kyokutenho going to move to ? or might he even retire without dropping to Juryo ?

- will we see Chiyomaru drop to Juryo ? only two more victories seems to avoid that

- and will Tokitenku try another comeback from Juryo, is it game over or will it depend on how close to top Juryo he might be ?

JURYO

- what ground will Tochinoshin reach ?

- new career highs for Amuru (first time Makuuchi, after more than 12 years in ozumo) & Homarefuji

- how close to the bottom of Juryo is Gagamaru going to end up and might it be the end if he would no longer be a sekitori ?

- Wakanosato still managed 6 victories, after that 0-5 start it seemed totally over, but how much longer will he continue ?

- for Wakakoyu it's game over

- Masunoyama, Chiyonokuni & docu-guy Kyokutaisei will sadly all be gone to Makushita

UPPER MAKUSHITA

- finally Iwasaki nailed it to become a sekitori

- a bit less expected feat by Kotoeko, who flew totally under the radar

- perhaps young hopeful and tall Tatsu as well ? or will the final spot be claimed by Dewahayate ?

- both Ishiura & Horikiri will drop a little, so not really in promotion ground yet

- Onosho, Masunoumi & Takatoshi on the other hand might go for it next basho, depending a lot on their final day outcome

- for Keitenkai it would be so nice to get a second chance at a Juryo debut, after that 1-2-12 and a long absence in Aki 2012, but it won't be for next basho yet

- Sagatsukasa is feeling it slip away, nearing mid Makushita

- new career highs for 1995 born Terutsuyoshi & Meisei

- Akua is also steadily gaining ground, the new shikona must be doing him good

- how much longer will Irie at top half of Makushita ? will be his 11th basho in a row

- former sekitori Dairaido might get to a ~Ms8 spot again, would he fancy another go by the age of 35 ?

- Ikeru keeps improving, the guy still has never suffered a real MK so far

- while Sasanoyama might finally follow in the footsteps of heya-mate Jokoryu

LOWER MAKUSHITA

- heavy Mankajo was still Ms6e in Haru, but 4 MK in a row sees him drop to ~Ms40

- similar kind of ordeal for Tsurubayashi : still Ms12 in Natsu, but now towards the bottom of Makushita

- what to say about Goshi ? his 5th MK now after that Makushita Yusho with only two small KK in between

- not completely over yet for Oiwato with that 5-2 this basho, but still a long way back to sekitori-hood

- skinny Ohara managed KK and thus will reach a new career high, yippeekayee

- the sensation of low Makushita this basho was Abiko of course, will he get to Juryo by Hatsu'15 ?

- Sasakiyama had reached Makushita after just 5 basho, but will have his 22th out of 29 basho on that level next basho, facing demotion

- Wakakeisho even got a Yusho at MsTD back in 2006, reaching Ms1w, but has stayed in Makushita for 47 out of 51 basho, must be close to a record

- Aokishin has a nice career record of 132-78-56, and now his first KK at Makushita level, even a third consecutive 5-2 record

- the downfall of Daikiho is about the hardest I've ever noticed : 5-10 at J7w, then 6-9, 2-13, 0-4-3 and now also 0-7 will take him to mid Sandanme ?

- Chiyoarashi has been rather unlucky to have left Juryo twice with an injury, and now is on his way back to at least top Makushita again

- veteran and former sekitori (back in 2006) Dewaotori is looking for a spot in the Long KK lineup, with his 4th in a row after an injury

- both foreigners Kazafuzan & Masutoo managed a 6-1, taking them close to their career highs, for Kaza this was Ms10 back in 2008, for the Hungarian Ms22 in 2011

- young Mongolian Takakasuga had a 7-0 in Haru, but 2x 2-5 prior to that and 2-5, 3-4 and now 1-6 after, not really the next Ichinojo

- while former Maegashira Towanoyama will also drop to Sandanme again

SANDANME

- Aratoshi will have another shot in Makushita, thanks to another minor KK, his 4th this year

- one-time Maegashira Nionoumi suffered his 8th MK in a row : 1-14 at J4w, followed by 3-4, 2-5, 3-4, 1-6 and 3x 3-4

- I expected more from Hokkairyu after those 2x 6-1 coming out of injury, but it will be a MK this time

- Fukugoriki also dropped away like a stone, with 2-5 at Ms5e, followed by 3-4, 2-5 and 0-7, but now at least KK again

- Nankairiki also went from Ms12e to Sd29e in just 4 basho, but this 6-1 will bring him towards mid Makushita I suppose

- former sekitori Hitenryu had gone to Ms26 coming out of injury, back to Sd18, but now managed a KK again

- Mizuta managed a 5-2 which brings his total career record to 22-6

- Kotaro even a 6-1, totalling 23-5

- Shiba & Shodai both 6-1 as well, both having a 19-2 record

- and the Yusho went to +200kg Takagi, also bringing his total to 19-2, that will be interesting in Makushita next basho

- sadly famous nephew Musashikuni couldn't promote with them, as he lost to Kotaro and his final 3 matches of this basho

- he might fight it out with Nagao then, as Koike with a 6-1 from Sd64 should reach Makushita as well I reckon

- Takayoshitoshi however with 6-1 at Sd74 might just fall short for that ?

- one-time sekitori Dewanosato is slowly dropping towards Jonidan again, he will turn 44 years old by the end of next basho

- Takamai, former Watanabe, who once was among the long KK lineup now has 4 KK in a row again, odd given those 20 losses in a row

- 37 year old Fujinokaze's career high of Ms14 dates from over 10 years ago, so he might call it an end after 0-7 and demotion this basho, no ?

- injured Kansei will go from Ms3 to bottom of Jonidan at least

- at the bottom, Shuji, Tamakongo & Narumi all managed another KK and no MK yet since their debut

JONIDAN & LOWER

- on top, another KK for tall 16 year old Shonannoumi, yet another one to keep track of

- another Yusho for Hamaguchi, already going back to top Sandanme next basho

- Ota went from Ms20 to Jd62 in less than 2 years, pretty awful

- Ishii & Takiguchi are on 11-3 & 10-3 records so far, while at the bottom Mongolian Sadahikari on 10-4 after this 6-1

- Kyokuhikari already reached Makushita in 1998 and his career high of Ms35 dates from 2001, will this 1-6 be the end ?

- returnee Enshunada lost to Yuma, but could still finish 6-1 on senshuraku

- the Jonokuchi Yusho went to one-time sekitori Ryuden after almost 2 years of absence

- while returnee Suekawa might be one to watch as well for a while more

- back in Mae-zumo, 43 year old Hokutoryu got a 2-4 result, f.i. losing to 3-0 'winner' (yet another) Sato

- and will we ever see one-time sekitori Hishofuji again (who is now Banzuke-gai) ?