Slippery slope -Kyushu dohyo talk

[Kintamayama 45,086]

The slippery dohyo in Kyushu has become the subject of talk in the sumo world. The rikishi have been complaining. Every year, it is very slippery and the subject was even brought up at the rikishi kai. The main concern is rikishi getting injured. "The surface was rough but it was silky-smooth today. I wish they would water it more. It's a professionals' dohyo. It makes me want to put on spikes!!" said a grumbling Okinoumi. Takarafuji, who was yorikiried by Kisenosato, added: "Today was especially slippery. As soon as I got into the bout I felt uneasy . Incomplete combustion (faulty towers)!!"

"I still felt like I slipped. I wonder what it is.." said Hakuhou, who seemed to have slipped during his day 6 loss to Takayasu.

Personal note- bollocks. I agree with Hakkaku Oyakata during his commentary today: "This is tiresome. The dohyo is equally slippery for everyone!"

Edited November 15, 2014 by Kintamayama

[lackmaker 437]

Of course its equally slippery for everyone that doesn't mean it facilitates a good contest. And undeserved wins may result.

[Mongolith 51]

Of course its equally slippery for everyone that doesn't mean it facilitates a good contest. And undeserved wins may result.

So we should only have tennis on grass, no wait, clay, sorry, concrete...what sort of court?

Tennis uses different types of court for a reason. Dohyo's are supposed to be about the same in every tournament.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Mongolith

[Asashosakari 19,306]

Of course its equally slippery for everyone that doesn't mean it facilitates a good contest. And undeserved wins may result.

So we should only have tennis on grass, no wait, clay, sorry, concrete...what sort of court?

Considering the "artificial" tennis courts used on the professional tours get more and more homogenized and the grass and clay seasons get shorter and shorter, this argument seems a bit anachronistic.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Of course its equally slippery for everyone that doesn't mean it facilitates a good contest. And undeserved wins may result.

Why do I always run out of likes.

[torquato 1,075]

Of course its equally slippery for everyone that doesn't mean it facilitates a good contest. And undeserved wins may result.

Why do I always run out of likes.

I'll give you one frome mine. Take good care of it and don't spend it for sweets and chocolate. ;)

[krindel 671]

Possible injuries aside (which I have no doubt are an issue), the argument that the dohyo is the same for everyone is not a valid one.

An unreliable surface is always more beneficial to the participant who was initially less likely to win, as it introduces a factor of randomness that can impact negatively either opponent more or less equally. Since the more skilled opponent has the advantage in most of the fights, its statistically more likely that the random slip will impact the outcome of a bout in his opponents favor, rather than in his own.

To illustrate this as without complicating it more than necessary, say you have a match of a Yokozuna vs a Maegashira. And lets say the odds without accidents are 90% for a Yokozuna win, and 10% for a Maegashira win. And lets also say each has a 10% chance of slipping, and whoever slips, loses their bout.

So without slipping, the Yokozuna wins 90 times out of 100.

With 10% chance for each opponent slipping, the Yokozuna wins 82 times out of 100. Basically, most of the time that his opponent slips, he was more likely to win anyway, so he gains little advantage. Every time he slips though, he loses a bout that he was more likely to win.

Its the same for every sport really, adverse conditions are always in favor of the opponent who was more likely to lose in the first place.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am not saying that that's an excuse for anyone, its just that the governing body of any sport should strive to make sure that the conditions are as optimal as possible, not just "the same for everyone".

Edited November 15, 2014 by krindel

[Naganoyama 5,905]

There's also a slightly disproportionate disadvantage to a more attacking/faster moving rikishi who is more likely to slip than someone a bit more defensive who moves around a bit more slowly.

[Manekineko 200]

To quote myself from a private conversation:

I wonder if non-Tokyo basho really are more skid-prone than in-Tokyo ones. Someone should perform a double blind, statistically sound investigation.

Any volunteers? ;-)

[Asashosakari 19,306]

I wonder if non-Tokyo basho really are more skid-prone than in-Tokyo ones. Someone should perform a double blind, statistically sound investigation.

Any volunteers? ;-)

I suspect this idea will break down on the "competitors must not know if they're in Tokyo or not" part... ;-)

[Mongolith 51]

I wonder why they would be more slippery than the tokyo bashos. Can the dirt really be that different. I am assuming they use the same process to make all the dohyos.

[Asashosakari 19,306]

If sumo is purely sport, then certainly any differences should be minimized.

And if it isn't, then they shouldn't? I'd be curious about the underlying argument for that. Do slippery dohyo surfaces somehow serve to separate the True Warriors from Mere Wrestlers? Edited November 15, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,086]

Everyone is suddenly talking about the slippery dohyo because of the Hakuhou loss (and you know what? Look at it again- he didn't lose because he slipped). Of 21 Makuuchi bouts a day, maybe one of them (2, max) involves any kind of slipping, even in Kyushu. All the formulae and stats produced here make it seem to a passing vagrant that every other bout has someone slipping.

It's a total anomaly, not worth the effort of collecting facts. Borderline hair-pulling happens much more often.

[Asashosakari 19,306]

Everyone is suddenly talking about the slippery dohyo because of the Hakuhou loss (and you know what? Look at it again- he didn't lose because he slipped). Of 21 Makuuchi bouts a day, maybe one of them (2, max) involves any kind of slipping, even in Kyushu. All the formulae and stats produced here make it seem to a passing vagrant that every other bout has someone slipping.

This "slippery dohyo outside of Tokyo" thing has been going on for years, and surely the rikishi are already trying to compensate for it - and yet still they keep slipping to a noticeable degree. Anyway, even the rikishi who don't end up slipping are adversely affected, simply because they have to adjust their sumo to that random factor.

If it takes a Hakuho loss to get some attention, so be it. Doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Here's an idea, let's let the audience throw zabuton during the bouts to get things a little more random and exciting. It'll still be the same situation for both competitors, so it must be okay, right?

Edited November 15, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Ruziklao 34]

Here's an idea, let's let the audience throw zabuton during the bouts to get things a little more random and exciting. It'll still be the same situation for both competitors, so it must be okay, right?

It depends on what the audience should aim at... :-P

[krindel 671]

Everyone is suddenly talking about the slippery dohyo because of the Hakuhou loss (and you know what? Look at it again- he didn't lose because he slipped). Of 21 Makuuchi bouts a day, maybe one of them (2, max) involves any kind of slipping, even in Kyushu. All the formulae and stats produced here make it seem to a passing vagrant that every other bout has someone slipping.

It's a total anomaly, not worth the effort of collecting facts. Borderline hair-pulling happens much more often.

As far as that is concerned, I also don't believe Hakuho lost because of slipping. In your own initial report, you have quotes by Okinoumi and Takarafuji, not only Hakuho. And you also mentioned that it was brought up at the rikishi kai. And its definitely not the first time we hear about it, is it? So its obviously an issue to some extent...

As far as I am concerned, anything that has the potential to ruin a bout (let alone to injure a rikishi for no reason) has to be addressed. If the Kyokai has studied the problem and has found that there's really no way to address it, then so be it, I agree that its not the worst problem in sumo. But its not something that should just be ignored as a non-issue...

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Pretty sure a different kind of clay is used in the non-Tokyo tournaments...no doubt Doreen or someone could elaborate on that.

As for it being the same for everyone, extending that argument, why not encase the dohyo in ice? It would be the same for everyone...and the entertainment value would skyrocket. Sumo would become the most popular sport on the planet, with prime-time interviews with associates/family members of rikishi and sideshows involving large-breasted mistresses of the rikishi having mini-scraps in the changing rooms over some minor slight.

And dry ice and loud music accompanying Endo's entrance down the hanamichi. Perhaps a little Egyptian mood music when Boody comes in?

[Asashosakari 19,306]

We'll never find out, but I'd love to know what the yobidashi think about this matter - all the care they invest into getting the dohyo as suitable for competition as possible (making it perfectly level during construction, all the between-bouts sweeping, etc.), and then it's negatively affected by something that's out of their control and/or by the Kyokai being uninterested in addressing it.

[Hakuhonofan 334]

Just from my own observation, rikishi lose from slippiotoshi happened more often in non-Tokyo basho.

It's been happening for years, ;though, so I assumed many rikishi have this knowledge and had built some kind of strategy to fight on this type of dohyo.

Losing from slipping is unfortunate, but it is still counted as losing.

[Kintamayama 45,086]

Here's an idea, let's let the audience throw zabuton during the bouts to get things a little more random and exciting. It'll still be the same situation for both competitors, so it must be okay, right?

OK, you got me there. That is a response I would expect from ME, not from you..

[Naganoyama 5,905]

Let them wear shoes...

[Masumasumasu 902]

Just build the dohyo out of plastic. You won't need yobidashi. Nobody will slip. Everything will be nice, safe and boring.

The rikishi can all wear helmets, straight jackets and full body armor, too.

[Kintamayama 45,086]

Everyone was slipping all over the place today(not).

[Gernobono 466]

actually i do not care about slippery or not and how sippery-prone some rikishi are, BUT today kotoshogiku with his gaburi-yori clearly had a disadvantage......if this is poor tactics i leave to you, but still it was as it was

[Treblemaker 254]

I've been saying for years (and even mentioned it on Day 1 of THIS basho) that the dohyos are not the same - especially in Kyushu and Nagoya. Yes, the surface is the same for everybody, BUT: it doesn't affect everybody's styles the same way. IT DOES affect certain guys who rely on footwork and perhaps who might have smaller feet. And as the basho goes on, the surface gets even more slipperier.

It's a radical idea, but maybe when constructing the dohyo, the yobidashi could score the surface of the clay in much the same way that non-slipping patterned concrete is done, with tiny grooves or ripples. Something to give these guys a good grip. (Yeah, that's gonna happen...)

But when it starts affecting the results of bouts, and it does...