Trivia bits

[RabidJohn 1,853]

2 hours ago, Faustonowaka said:

Has there ever been a heya with 3 ex-Yokozuna coaching at the same time, as is currently the case at Isegahama-beya (Asahifuji, Hakuho, Terunofuji)?

You have to put an asterisk next to that because moto-Hakuho wasn't of Isegahama-beya and is only there under exceptional circumstances.

There's a nearby parallel universe where Harumafuji didn't get a little too drunk at a karaoke bar, and Isegahama has 3 ex-yokozuna coaching who actually belong there.

[Ryoshishokunin 323]

Is it not the case that Harumafuji's still actually coaching as Isegahama, just as a non-elder? He's still around, it seems.

[RabidJohn 1,853]

The 'Harumafuji activities' thread's most recent post has him living in Mongolia with his family as of September 2024. He probably only visits the heya when he's got business nearby.

 

[Seiyashi 4,108]

11 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

You have to put an asterisk next to that because moto-Hakuho wasn't of Isegahama-beya and is only there under exceptional circumstances.

There's a nearby parallel universe where Harumafuji didn't get a little too drunk at a karaoke bar, and Isegahama has 3 ex-yokozuna coaching who actually belong there.

Devil's advocate: unless Terunofuji never let his illnesses get out of control (or made yokozuna before that), Harumafuji would have branched out before Isegahama had 3 ex-yokozuna in the house.

[sahaven111 178]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Devil's advocate: unless Terunofuji never let his illnesses get out of control (or made yokozuna before that), Harumafuji would have branched out before Isegahama had 3 ex-yokozuna in the house.

I know we're getting a bit off topic now, but why wouldn't Harumafuji have branched out if either of those things happened?

[Seiyashi 4,108]

2 hours ago, sahaven111 said:

I know we're getting a bit off topic now, but why wouldn't Harumafuji have branched out if either of those things happened?

Sorry for the ambiguity, unless was meant to tag onto the clause about Isegahama having 3 ex-yokozuna. That parallel universe is not as near as thought. 

[Kamitsuumi 402]

2 hours ago, sahaven111 said:

I know we're getting a bit off topic now, but why wouldn't Harumafuji have branched out if either of those things happened?

The idea is that Harumafuji would branch out either way, but Terunofuji needed to be promoted to yokozuna earlier, so that he could retire before Harumafuji branches out.

[Reonito 1,518]

It's been mentioned elsewhere, but Tokihayate becomes only the 3rd M18 since 1959, though also the 3rd in the last ~5 years. On both prior occasions, the rank lasted one basho, the first ending with Asanoyama's Ozeki promotion and the second with Mitakeumi's. With no obvious Ozeki candidates, we may see M18e persist, and it's not out of the question that M18w could appear.

[Asashosakari 19,647]

All meetings of former makuuchi rikishi in sandanme or lower:

Basho	Day	Rikishi 1				Kimarite		Rikishi 2
		Rank	Shikona	Result				Rank	Shikona	Result
2014.11	9	Sd21e	Daikiho	3-2 (4-3)		oshidashi		Sd22e	Nionoumi	4-1 (6-1)
2016.11	5	Sd28w	Yoshiazuma	2-1 (6-1)		yorikiri		Sd23w	Jokoryu	3-0 (7-0)
2019.01	12	Sd7e	Masunoyama	4-2 (4-3)		hatakikomi		Sd1w	Nionoumi	5-1 (6-1)
2019.03	4	Jd50w	Amakaze	1-1 (6-1)		kotenage		Jd48w	Terunofuji	2-0 (7-0)
2019.03	4	Sd34e	Yamaguchi	1-1 (4-3)		hatakikomi		Sd35w	Yoshiazuma	2-0 (3-4)
2020.11	6	Sd23w	Kagamio	0-3 (0-3-4)		fusen		Sd19w	Sagatsukasa	1-2 (3-4)
2021.07	7	Sd58e	Yoshiazuma	3-1 (5-2)		oshidashi		Sd55w	Tomokaze	4-0 (6-1)
2021.07	9	Sd77e	Sagatsukasa	5-0 (6-1)		hikiotoshi		Sd55w	Tomokaze	4-1 (6-1)
2023.03	4	Sd56w	Amakaze	2-0 (5-2)		hatakikomi		Sd55w	Kyokutaisei	1-1 (6-1)
2023.07	7	Sd7e	Nionoumi	1-3 (4-3)		yorikiri		Sd4w	Fujiazuma	0-4 (2-5)
2025.03	2	Sd12e	Chiyonoo	0-1 (0-2)		yorikiri		Sd12w	Yago	1-0

(Culled by hand from this brute-force query, which uses all such rikishi who were ever ranked low enough as input.)

[Reonito 1,518]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but any idea why they didn't match the 6-0 Makushita guys head-to-head when they weren't from the same heya, leading to 7-0 vs 7-0 playoffs in 2008, 2009, and 2016? @Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,647]

The 2016 one had three 6-0's after they inexplicably used 5-0 Onosho as a Day 10 filler in juryo, going 4x 5-0 -> 3x 6-0 -> 2x 7-0 as a result.

The first two were part of a period in which they seemingly tried to - at least sometimes - avoid giving zensho rikishi an easy pathway to juryo, so they would test 6-0's against other promotion contenders or against juryo rikishi, rather than letting them face the other, low-ranked 6-0. I think it was motivated at least in part by the tendency of too few demotion spots materializing in many tournaments (which, as we came to find out in 2011, was likely because trading wins was a common thing in juryo).

Frequently one or the other 6-0 lost (or even both), so 7-0 playoffs were still rare despite that approach. I thought I might have made a list of those at some point, but I can't find any post like that just now, so...

• 1996.01 Ms9w Kyokutenho faced Ms2w Saigo 5-1 (and won), rather than Ms60Td Kaiho (who also won) -> 7-0 playoff
• 1997.03 Ms8e Kogawa faced J12w Kyokutenho 6-6 (and lost), rather than Ms42e Kotonomine (who also lost) -> 6-1 playoff
• 2002.07 Ms15w Furuichi faced Ms4e Kinkaiyama 5-1 (and lost), rather than Ms54e Kyokunankai (who also lost) -> 6-1 playoff
• 2008.05 Ms12w Tamaasuka faced Ms2w Aran 5-1 (and won), rather than Ms56w Sadanishiki (who lost)
• 2008.07 Ms12w Hoshkaze faced Ms1w Yamamotoyama 5-1 (and lost), rather than Ms33w Yotsuguruma (who also lost) -> 6-1 playoff
• 2008.11 Ms10e Kotokuni faced Ms1w Fukuoka 5-1 (and won), rather than Ms42e Sensho (who also won) -> 7-0 playoff
• 2009.09 Ms10e Gagamaru faced J12e Hoshikaze 5-7 (and won), rather than Ms46w Kaisei (who also won) -> 7-0 playoff
• 2013.05 Ms7e Osunaarashi faced J13e Akiseyama 5-7 (and won), rather than Ms43e Taiga (who lost)

In addition there was

• 2009.01 Ms1e (!) Fukuoka faced J11w Kitazakura 4-9 (and won), rather than Ms21e Ri (who lost)

That was right after the aforementioned 2008.11 case where they ended up unable to promote Fukuoka to juryo despite him going 5-2 at Ms1w, and I think they were just scared what might happen if they didn't throw absolutely every available makushita contender at the at-risk-of-demotion juryo guys. Turned out to be justified, that basho again ended with just two demotions (and the most recent case of a top five 6-1 not getting promoted).

The list might be incomplete, I used this query as the starting point. (Which also includes irrelevant cases like same-heya 6-0's or a single 6-0.)

Edited March 12 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,647]

Rookies who had to wait until Day 4 for their ranked debut, since 1989:

1996.05 Jk70e Kaitanaka*
1996.11 Jk54e Tochiakagi*
2002.07 Jk49e Tamashinzan
2003.03 Jk34w Hizume
2003.07 Jk40w Maeamami
2004.11 Jk40w Maekawa
2006.03 Jk35w Urata
2007.03 Jk36e Akatsuki
2008.05 Jk43w Kanaya
2010.01 Jk28w Kohiyama
2010.09 Jk32w Tamayuki**
2011.07 Jk23w Kumamoto
2011.11 Jk18w Ashitakayama
2016.05 Jk31w Sawanofuji
2022.11 Jk16w Kokiryu
2025.03 Jk18w Asakawasumi**

Via this query.

* = second-last spot on the banzuke, ** = third-last. All others were at the very bottom.

One of these rikishi tipped me off to another rare thing. Since 1989, there have been 89 jonokuchi rikishi who competed in eight matches for scheduling reasons. Of these, only two went through all eight matches in under 13 days:

11 days (Day 4 to 14): 2011.07 Jk23w Kumamoto
12 days (Day 3 to 14): 2011.01 Jk28w Yamada

Edited March 12 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,100]

19 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

* = second-last spot on the banzuke, ** = third-last. All others were at the very bottom. 

I was wondering how this was possible, but obviously it's because the ones ranked below them didn't compete.  Well, at least this time, and so I assume it's true for the rest.

Edited March 12 by Gurowake

[Reonito 1,518]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

2009.01 Ms1e (!) Fukuoka faced J11w Kitazakura 4-9 (and won), rather than Ms21e Ri (who lost)

When I clicked, it was neat to see that Fukuoka became Okinoumi!

[Faustonowaka 130]

Chiyoshoma had his first kinboshi after 93 tournaments. After a quick search I came up with Takanonami and Kotoshogiku who did “better” with 94.

Anyone have a complete list?

Edited March 13 by Faustonowaka

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

1 hour ago, Faustonowaka said:

After a quick search I came up with Takanonami and Kotoshogiku who did “better” with 94....

...and after a distinctively different kind of career.

[Oskanohana 293]

5 hours ago, Faustonowaka said:

Chiyoshoma had his first kinboshi after 93 tournaments. After a quick search I came up with Takanonami and Kotoshogiku who did “better” with 94.

Anyone have a complete list?

Well, it was only his 7th actual try, he's been kept down by "the man".

I was trying to spreadsheet the list of M vs Y bouts to look for who took the most tries to get his first kinboshi, but the sumodb bout query lacks a proper text column for "win/loss" (as it has on the daily torikumi simplified style, for instance) and is only showing the white and black circles and I cannot get it to work in a spreadsheet properly. If somebody has a quick and easy workaround, as Dr. Frasier Crane would say: "I'm listening".

[Reonito 1,518]

2 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Well, it was only his 7th actual try, he's been kept down by "the man".

I was trying to spreadsheet the list of M vs Y bouts to look for who took the most tries to get his first kinboshi, but the sumodb bout query lacks a proper text column for "win/loss" (as it has on the daily torikumi simplified style, for instance) and is only showing the white and black circles and I cannot get it to work in a spreadsheet properly. If somebody has a quick and easy workaround, as Dr. Frasier Crane would say: "I'm listening".

Looks like Takekaze took 26 tries, though this was scrolling through some results manually.

[Asashosakari 19,647]

2 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Well, it was only his 7th actual try, he's been kept down by "the man".

I was trying to spreadsheet the list of M vs Y bouts to look for who took the most tries to get his first kinboshi, but the sumodb bout query lacks a proper text column for "win/loss" (as it has on the daily torikumi simplified style, for instance) and is only showing the white and black circles and I cannot get it to work in a spreadsheet properly. If somebody has a quick and easy workaround, as Dr. Frasier Crane would say: "I'm listening".

Separate queries for wins and losses, then combine in the spreadsheet and sort by date.

[Oskanohana 293]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Separate queries for wins and losses, then combine in the spreadsheet and sort by date. 

Yeah, I tried that but too much of a hassle between that, taking out fusen bouts and specially draws from pre WWII bouts, which, whithout any kimarite, are awful to track. If I'm awfully bored, I might try later, maybe culling from WWII on or something like that. Plus, the db was kicking me out regularly for making it work too much :P

[Asashosakari 19,647]

11 minutes ago, Oskanohana said:

Yeah, I tried that but too much of a hassle between that, taking out fusen bouts and specially draws from pre WWII bouts, which, whithout any kimarite, are awful to track. If I'm awfully bored, I might try later, maybe culling from WWII on or something like that. Plus, the db was kicking me out regularly for making it work too much :P

Kinboshi have only been officially recognized since 1930 anyway, so there's your starting point. 

[Oskanohana 293]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Looks like Takekaze took 26 tries, though this was scrolling through some results manually.

Wouldn't you know, you might be correct (surprised pikachu face.jpg)

After a harsh session of nested conditionals, stupid filters and some nonsense, apart from Takekaze, only Tamanofuji, Ryogoku and Tochinoshin emerged with needing more than 20 tries to get a kinboshi form the start of the 6-basho era(1958, sorry @Asashosakari, but 1930 seemed too much work for me once I had started). I didn't even bother to include the previous basho, so if a rikishi got more tries before that 1958 cutline, tough luck. List might be incorrect because fuck shikona changes and guys with same shikona, but these are my rough findings.

First, I'll start with the guys that didn't even get a kinboshi after 20+ tries, number in brackets indicates the valid attempts at a kinboshi (fusen don't count):

• Kaisei (30)
• Toki (29)
• Sadanoumi (28) (not the current one, but Sadanoumi Sr.)
• Mitoizumi (22)
• Daiju (20)
• Tokitenku (20)

 

Then we have the list of the succesful ones, number in brackets indicates the try they were succesful in (as in Takekaze lost 25 times to a Yokozuna as a maegashira before getting his kinboshi on the 26th try):

• Takekaze (26)
• Tamanofuji (22)
• Ryogoku (21)
• Tochinoshin (21)

So, there you go, there's my answer to my own question that nobody really cares about.

If somebody is interested in the full list; I have it in a spreadsheet, but results need to be carefully watched so no Sadanoumi or other bullshit happened.

Edited March 14 by Oskanohana

[krindel 675]

19 hours ago, Faustonowaka said:

Chiyoshoma had his first kinboshi after 93 tournaments. After a quick search I came up with Takanonami and Kotoshogiku who did “better” with 94.

Anyone have a complete list?

From what I can tell the top 10 is:
 

• Tamaryu (1986.11) - 101
• Oshio (1978.05) - 98
• Takanonami (2002.11) - 94
• Chiyoshoma (2025.03) - 93
• Kotoshogiku (2017.09) - 93
• Hananokuni (1989.09) - 87
• Kaiki (1979.11) - 85
• Kurosegawa (1980.03) - 85
• Daitetsu (1985.07) - 84
• Minatofuji (1998.01) - 83
   

And for what its worth, the "bottom 10" (as in least tournaments to kinboshi)

• Ichinojo (2014.09) - 5
• Sakuranishiki (1940.05) - 5
• Musoyama (1994.01) - 6
• Endo (2014.05) - 7
• Yutakayama (1962.07) - 8
• Dejima (1997.09) - 9
• Futamiyama (1941.05) - 9
• Kotomitsuki (2000.11) - 10
• Terukuni (1940.01) - 10
• Tosanoumi (1995.11) - 10
• Toyoshima (1942.01) - 10

Obviously in the latter list the pre-1949 results are not really comparable...

[Gurowake 4,100]

2 hours ago, krindel said:

"bottom 10" (as in least tournaments to kinboshi)

Obviously the more recent entries are dominated by MsTDs, who need a lot fewer tournaments to get to Makuuchi, and now it's not possible for them to get to Juryo in one tournament (more reason why I think they should give all the Makushita 6-0s* matches every one of the last three days, so it's reasonable to promote anyone who manages a 9-0 to Juryo).  Ichinojo's record is going to be very hard to beat. 

*And 5-1s, since they're still in the Yusho race under this system, but clearly an 8-1 Ms60 isn't getting promoted, so not relevant to what I'm saying.

Edited March 14 by Gurowake

[Bunbukuchagama 770]

7 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I think they should give all the Makushita 6-0s* matches every one of the last three days, so it's reasonable to promote anyone who manages a 9-0 to Juryo

What?! Why would some rikishi get 9 bouts while everyone else (usually) gets 7?