Gurowake 4,099 Posted March 15 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: What?! Why would some rikishi get 9 bouts while everyone else (usually) gets 7? In order to better differentiate those that are aiming for Juryo. I've laid down a more detailed plan here: Edited March 15 by Gurowake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 770 Posted March 15 Is spending an extra basho in Makushita such a big deal for TD rikishi? We are supposed to abandon many decades of tradition to prevent it? And no, it's not happening, of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,099 Posted March 15 3 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: Is spending an extra basho in Makushita such a big deal for TD rikishi? We are supposed to abandon many decades of tradition to prevent it? And no, it's not happening, of course. Of course it's not happening. I don't have any hope that it ever will. But it's more fuel to my wish that something like it should happen, and they do change some things every once in a while that seem beforehand like they'd never happen, but no one really expects them. I don't think anyone expected SdTD to ever be instituted, them to move from MsTD60 to Ms15/10TD and then back 20 years later. It's also not just about TDs, but as a solution to the general trend that a young hopeful languishes in the top of Makushita for a while before breaking through to Juryo and quickly getting promoted to Makuuchi. I first really noticed it with Shodai, but there are plenty of other examples (I just don't remember them as easily). There really need to be more matches between those with prospects of making Juryo in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 770 Posted March 15 19 minutes ago, Gurowake said: It's also not just about TDs, but as a solution to the general trend that a young hopeful languishes in the top of Makushita for a while before breaking through to Juryo and quickly getting promoted to Makuuchi. Maybe we should just let Onosatos of this world start in Juryo? That would create less disruption to the schedule at least. Or we could conclude that young rikishi failing to get over the upper Makushita wall fast enough might just not be as ready to become sekitori as we thought. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,509 Posted March 15 28 minutes ago, Gurowake said: It's also not just about TDs, but as a solution to the general trend that a young hopeful languishes in the top of Makushita for a while before breaking through to Juryo and quickly getting promoted to Makuuchi. I first really noticed it with Shodai, but there are plenty of other examples (I just don't remember them as easily). Shodai got a bit unlucky to not get promoted twice in a row with a 4-3 from Ms3 and Ms2, but he didn't exactly languish. I take your point though that having only seven bouts creates a lot more variance, so that someone who'd reliably get to double digits in 15 bouts would often finish 4-3 or even 3-4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 770 Posted March 15 13 minutes ago, Reonito said: I take your point though that having only seven bouts creates a lot more variance, so that someone who'd reliably get to double digits in 15 bouts would often finish 4-3 or even 3-4. The one kind of change I can see (possibly) implemented in the not so near future would be a result of ozumo's depopulation: if rikishi numbers keep dropping dramatically, Makushita schedule might be eventually changed to accommodate 9 bouts for every rikishi (but not to the select few who need a helpful hand to push them up into sekitori ranks). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Koorifuu 1,019 Posted March 17 On 12/03/2025 at 03:53, Asashosakari said: All meetings of former makuuchi rikishi in sandanme or lower: Basho Day Rikishi 1 Kimarite Rikishi 2 Rank Shikona Result Rank Shikona Result 2014.11 9 Sd21e Daikiho 3-2 (4-3) oshidashi Sd22e Nionoumi 4-1 (6-1) 2016.11 5 Sd28w Yoshiazuma 2-1 (6-1) yorikiri Sd23w Jokoryu 3-0 (7-0) 2019.01 12 Sd7e Masunoyama 4-2 (4-3) hatakikomi Sd1w Nionoumi 5-1 (6-1) 2019.03 4 Jd50w Amakaze 1-1 (6-1) kotenage Jd48w Terunofuji 2-0 (7-0) 2019.03 4 Sd34e Yamaguchi 1-1 (4-3) hatakikomi Sd35w Yoshiazuma 2-0 (3-4) 2020.11 6 Sd23w Kagamio 0-3 (0-3-4) fusen Sd19w Sagatsukasa 1-2 (3-4) 2021.07 7 Sd58e Yoshiazuma 3-1 (5-2) oshidashi Sd55w Tomokaze 4-0 (6-1) 2021.07 9 Sd77e Sagatsukasa 5-0 (6-1) hikiotoshi Sd55w Tomokaze 4-1 (6-1) 2023.03 4 Sd56w Amakaze 2-0 (5-2) hatakikomi Sd55w Kyokutaisei 1-1 (6-1) 2023.07 7 Sd7e Nionoumi 1-3 (4-3) yorikiri Sd4w Fujiazuma 0-4 (2-5) 2025.03 2 Sd12e Chiyonoo 0-1 (0-2) yorikiri Sd12w Yago 1-0 (Culled by hand from this brute-force query, which uses all such rikishi who were ever ranked low enough as input.) New entry today. Haru '25 thus joins Haru '19 in being the only basho where this happened more than once. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,620 Posted March 17 (edited) On 15/03/2025 at 01:59, Gurowake said: It's also not just about TDs, but as a solution to the general trend that a young hopeful languishes in the top of Makushita for a while before breaking through to Juryo and quickly getting promoted to Makuuchi. So your solution to prospects failing to succeed sufficiently well in the high Ms ranks is to create a mechanism that allows them either a) to fluke a promotion from low ranks where more than half their opponents will be rikishi who have no business being involved with anything that determines juryo promotions, or b) to fluke a promotion from Ms10-ish ranks because they happened to start 5-1 and then got to beat up on lower-ranked 5-1's for three cheap wins? And that's before we even get to questions such as "where does the space to accommodate these promotions come from?" and "any concern about the 5-1 guys who will be soaking up the extra losses?"... The whole thing makes zero sense on a truly massive number of levels even before any matters of tradition enter the picture. That it was brought up in this thread seemingly solely because you're concerned about rikishi being unable to set certain trivia records was the icing on the cake. Talk about fan myopia. Edited March 17 by Asashosakari 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,099 Posted March 18 6 hours ago, Asashosakari said: So your solution to prospects failing to succeed sufficiently well in the high Ms ranks is to create a mechanism that allows them either a) to fluke a promotion from low ranks where more than half their opponents will be rikishi who have no business being involved with anything that determines juryo promotions, or b) to fluke a promotion from Ms10-ish ranks because they happened to start 5-1 and then got to beat up on lower-ranked 5-1's for three cheap wins? And that's before we even get to questions such as "where does the space to accommodate these promotions come from?" and "any concern about the 5-1 guys who will be soaking up the extra losses?"... The whole thing makes zero sense on a truly massive number of levels even before any matters of tradition enter the picture. That it was brought up in this thread seemingly solely because you're concerned about rikishi being unable to set certain trivia records was the icing on the cake. Talk about fan myopia. I didn't mean for it to become a topic of conversation. I initially referenced an old suggestion that I had, and I've been trying to minimally answer questions about it. I didn't intend to open this can of worms, only to respond to what people were asking. You're being really harsh here for a reason I can't really understand. You could have made all these points in a much more constructive way. I acknowledge most of your points, but I don't really want to argue about it. While I have put some work into thinking about it, it's not like I've declared it as an absolutely air tight way to improve the promotions to Juryo. I'm sorry I ever brought it up here, and I'll be sure to never mention it again seeing as it seems to annoy you so much. 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhyen 1,846 Posted March 18 Midorifuji has lapped both Tochiozan and Toyonoshima combined for katsukashi wins. Will he be the first to reach triple digits. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubinhaad 11,754 Posted March 18 12 hours ago, rhyen said: Midorifuji has lapped both Tochiozan and Toyonoshima combined for katsukashi wins. Will he be the first to reach triple digits. Probably not. But provided he stays healthy, I have no doubt he'll set a new benchmark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubinhaad 11,754 Posted March 18 Oldest first-time kinboshi winners: Takekaze 35 years, 1 month, 0 days 2014 Nagoya, Day 9 Harumafuji Orochigata 34 years, 9 months, 23 days 1954 Haru, Day 10 Kagamisato Oshio 34 years, 9 months, 2 days 1935 Natsu, Day 3 Tamanishiki Shionishiki 34 years, 7 months, 10 days 1959 Natsu, Day 3 Asashio Matsunosato 34 years, 1 month, 16 days 1944 Haru, Day 6 Futabayama Hishuzan 33 years, 8 months, 23 days 1940 Natsu, Day 10 Futabayama Chiyoshoma 33 years, 7 months, 21 days 2025 Haru, Day 5 Hoshoryu Kuganishiki 33 years, 5 months, 26 days 1946 Aki, Day 5 Terukuni Sokokurai 33 years, 2 months, 5 days 2017 Haru, Day 3 Harumafuji Kasagiyama 33 years, 0 months, 10 days 1944 Haru, Day 9 Haguroyama Dropping out of the top ten: Asahigawa 32 years, 5 months, 7 days 1938 Haru, Day 13 Minanogawa 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,509 Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Yubinhaad said: Probably not. But provided he stays healthy, I have no doubt he'll set a new benchmark. Midorifuji has 7 of the 14 basho with at least 4 katasukashi wins (and he holds the top spot with 6). And he's got 5 days left to add to his 3 this basho so far (Shodai did an excellent job of escaping being victim #4). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,099 Posted March 22 (edited) On 18/03/2025 at 15:46, Yubinhaad said: Probably not. But provided he stays healthy, I have no doubt he'll set a new benchmark. I was expecting to see a Kizenryu-uwatenage-level percentage on that guy in the top, but it's "only" around 30% or his wins, not 48% for Kizenryu, though that's probably simply because uwatenage is generally more common anyway. That guy's Katatsukashi rate was 40 times the base rate, while Kizenryu's uwatenage rate was "only" 9.25 times. Midorifuji's rate for Katatsukashi is around 25 times the base rate. Edited March 22 by Gurowake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,620 Posted March 22 A question picked up from Discord - rikishi who won the makuuchi yusho on their birthday. (Aonishiki's birthday is tomorrow.) Yusho on birthday: 1966.05 - Taiho secures the yusho on May 29th (Day 15) 2009.09 - Asashoryu secures the yusho on September 27th (Day 15) Senshuraku = birthday, but yusho earlier: 1946.11 - Haguroyama secures the yusho on November 17th (Day 12 of 13), birthday on the 18th 1972.11 - Kotozakura secures the yusho on November 25th (Day 14), birthday on the 26th Near misses: 1923.01 - Tochigiyama secures the yusho on February 4th (Day 10 senshuraku), birthday on the 5th 1967.05 - Taiho secures the yusho on May 27th (Day 14), senshuraku on the 28th, birthday on the 29th 2021.11 - Terunofuji secures the yusho on November 27th (Day 14), senshuraku on the 28th, birthday on the 29th For juryo: Yusho on birthday: 1920.01 - Mayaoroshi secures the yusho on January 25th (Day 10 senshuraku) 1956.01 - Iwakaze secures the yusho on January 22nd (Day 15) Near misses: 1959.01 - Wakasugiyama has birthday on January 24th, secures the yusho on the 25th (Day 15) 1970.03 - Daiju has birthday on March 19th, secures the yusho on the 20th (Day 13) 1981.03 - Kotetsuyama has birthday on March 21st, secures the yusho on the 22nd (Day 15) 1982.03 - Oyutaka secures the yusho on March 28th (Day 15), has birthday on the 29th 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,901 Posted March 22 40 minutes ago, Asashosakari said: 2021.11 - Terunofuji secures the yusho on November 27th (Day 14), senshuraku on the 28th, birthday on the 29th Is this the best three-day weekend a sekitori has ever had? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,620 Posted March 23 5-5-5 records have occurred 15 times in the history of 15-day tournaments since 1949. Astonishingly, no less than 8 of them were produced by yokozuna: Rikishi 1 > Date Rank Record Tochinishiki 1956.05 Y1w 5-5-5 Takimiyama 1959.07 J12w 5-5-5 Sadanoyama 1966.03 Y1w 5-5-5 Onokuni 1988.01 Y2wHD 5-5-5 Kototsubaki 1992.07 M3w 5-5-5 Wakanohana 1999.03 Y1e 5-5-5 Asashoryu 2003.07 Y1e 5-5-5 Takamisakari 2007.11 M8w 5-5-5 Asashoryu 2008.09 Y1w 5-5-5 Tokitenku 2010.01 M8e 5-5-5 Kyokushuho 2013.05 M12w 5-5-5 Endo 2021.03 M5e 5-5-5 Terunofuji 2022.09 Y1e 5-5-5 Chiyoshoma 2024.07 M15e 5-5-5 Hoshoryu 2025.03 Y1e 5-5-5 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,509 Posted March 23 Midorifuji now has 8 of the 15 entries of 4 or more wins in a basho by katasukashi (as well as holding the top spot). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,620 Posted March 23 (edited) Onosato is the 8th rikishi to win 3 makuuchi yusho in a span of 6 tournaments without being yokozuna for any of them, and the 4th to not become yokozuna directly after the third (in bold). Tamanishiki - three consecutive yusho as ozeki from October 1930 to March 1931; not promoted for mostly political reasons disguised as "concerns about his character" (at the time; became yokozuna in 1933) Futabayama - three consecutive yusho from May 1936 to May 1937; first one as sekiwake and the others as ozeki, promoted to yokozuna afterwards Chiyonoyama - three yusho as ozeki from October 1949 to May 1951 (basho 1/2/6); first two consecutive without promotion to yokozuna due to misgivings about his (for the era) young age of 23, promoted after the third yusho Taiho - three yusho from November 1960 to September 1961 (basho 1/5/6); first one as sekiwake and the others as ozeki, promoted to yokozuna afterwards Akebono - three yusho from May 1992 to January 1993 (basho 1/4/5); first one as sekiwake and the others as ozeki, promoted to yokozuna afterwards Takanohana - four yusho as ozeki from January 1994 to November 1994 (basho 1/3/5/6); finally promoted to yokozuna after the fourth (which was his career 7th) Terunofuji - three yusho from July 2020 to May 2021 (basho 1/5/6); was M17e, sekiwake and ozeki for them; promoted to yokozuna one basho later after 14-1 J Onosato - three yusho from May 2024 to March 2025 (basho 1/3/6); was komusubi, sekiwake and ozeki for them For those wondering: Expanding beyond 6 basho adds Tochinishiki (1/6/7, promoted), Hakuho (1/6/7, promoted), Shimizugawa (1/4/8, never yokozuna), Kaio (1/6/8, never yokozuna), Harumafuji (1/7/8, promoted), Wakanohana (1/8/9, promoted), and Musashimaru (1/8/9, promoted). Edited March 23 by Asashosakari 4 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakura 1,495 Posted March 23 On 23/09/2022 at 15:53, Sakura said: The above palindromic W-L-A records have been updated (not in the original which was set to end in 2018). Since the last post we have an extra 3-9-3 by Endo in Aki 2020. 4-7-4 by Azumaryu in last basho's COVID interuptions. 5-5-5. The one that promted the requery. I noticed that Terunofuji is about to end 5-5-5, but Endo also managed it in Haru this year. A 6-3-6 was also produced last basho. This time by Ichiyamamoto. 7 hours ago, Asashosakari said: 5-5-5 records have occurred 15 times in the history of 15-day tournaments since 1949. Astonishingly, no less than 8 of them were produced by yokozuna: You've just reminded me I need to go back and update that old post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,509 Posted March 23 2 hours ago, Asashosakari said: Onosato is the 8th rikishi to win 3 makuuchi yusho in a span of 6 tournaments without being yokozuna for any of them, and the 4th to not become yokozuna directly after the third (in bold). Presumably he's the first to win 3 in his first 8 basho in the top division? My cursory look suggests he might even be the first to win 2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 770 Posted March 24 8 hours ago, Reonito said: My cursory look suggests he might even be the first to win 2? 1961.01 M12e 10-5 1961.03 M4w 0-0-15 1961.05 M13w 12-3 Y Yusho (1st) Kanto-sho (1st) 1961.07 M2e 11-4 Shukun-sho (1st) 2 Kinboshi 1961.09 S2eHD 8-7 1961.11 S2eHD 8-7 1962.01 S1w 9-6 1962.03 S2eHD 13-2 Y Yusho (2nd) Gino-sho (1st) Would you guess who it was? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsubame 368 Posted March 24 Is there a way to search the database for brothers in the same rank on a banzuke? Seeing the Waka's as M1 brought this question up in me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,509 Posted March 24 7 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said: Would you guess who it was? Taiho? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,099 Posted March 24 (edited) My memory is that only Sadanohana had a yusho from such a low rank in that time period. Edited March 24 by Gurowake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
