Questions For Kintamayama

[RabidJohn 1,855]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

There are traditional circles that frown upon bright mawashi colors and rikishi have been pressured into changing them in the past. Bottom line-as time goes by more and more colors can be seen. And Takamiyama cannot be used as an example for anything. He was the first foreigner in modern times to do what he did, so I'm pretty sure they let stuff like that slide.

I take your point about Jesse, but his was the earliest bright one I could think of. When I watched in the 80s I saw Chiyonofuji and Asahifuji in loud purples, Onokuni in royal blue, Hoshi in sky blue, Terao in pale green... lots of quite bright colours in fact!

Many of them switched to black later, so maybe that's evidence of the pressure you mention, but what's surprising is so many rikishi are flouting this unwritten/written rule/tradition, and have been as long as I've been watching. Yes, there are even more colours now, but time's not just gone by, it's changed.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

23 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

 what's surprising is so many rikishi are flouting this unwritten/written rule/tradition, and have been as long as I've been watching.

Three words: Both hands down. WRITTEN rule.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Three words: Both hands down. WRITTEN rule.

I'm aware of that one because I see the entirely inconsistent attempts to enforce it.

What's surprised me about the colour thing is that I wasn't just unaware of it, I never even suspected there might be any 'rule'. I mean, you see that baby girl pink thing of Ura's and it's anything goes!

Thanks for the enlightenment, as usual.

[Bumpkin 438]

Kinta:  What is your opinion of the lone American in Ozumo, Musashikuni?  Does he have a future in Makuuchi?  Is he anywhere near as good as his uncle and shisho, Musashigawa Oyakata?

[Kintamayama 45,527]

4 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

Kinta:  What is your opinion of the lone American in Ozumo, Musashikuni?  Does he have a future in Makuuchi?  Is he anywhere near as good as his uncle and shisho, Musashigawa Oyakata?

I haven't watched his bouts enough to form an opinion. Looking at the numbers I'd say he will make it to Makuuchi sooner or later. He seems to be taking it slowly but Shirley (3 years and in mid- Makushita), which by me is a good thing. He seems to have hit a mini-wall this basho at Makushita 26, but I'd say in a year he should be in Juryo. I'm just guessing here, since nobody really knows, but I have a feeling Musashimaru is doing it right.

[Bumpkin 438]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

I haven't watched his bouts enough to form an opinion. Looking at the numbers I'd say he will make it to Makuuchi sooner or later. He seems to be taking it slowly but Shirley (3 years and in mid- Makushita), which by me is a good thing. He seems to have hit a mini-wall this basho at Makushita 26, but I'd say in a year he should be in Juryo. I'm just guessing here, since nobody really knows, but I have a feeling Musashimaru is doing it right.

"Don't call me Shirley."

[kawika 123]

his Uncle Fia's advice to his nephew is to slowly climb up the banzuke.  i think his uncle did the same during his sumo career.  on the other hand, does Fia son go into sumo in 14 years?

[RabidJohn 1,855]

7 hours ago, kawika said:

his Uncle Fia's advice to his nephew is to slowly climb up the banzuke.  i think his uncle did the same during his sumo career.

'Uncle Fia' went from maezumo to makuuchi in 2 years, picking up Jk, Sd and Juryo yusho on the way...

I didn't think that was even comparitively slow, but don't know much so I'll stay on topic () and ask Kintamayama: did Musashimaru Koyo rise slowly up the banzuke?

[Kintamayama 45,527]

15 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

'Uncle Fia' went from maezumo to makuuchi in 2 years, picking up Jk, Sd and Juryo yusho on the way...

I didn't think that was even comparitively slow, but don't know much so I'll stay on topic () and ask Kintamayama: did Musashimaru Koyo rise slowly up the banzuke?

No, he did not. But he didn't storm up the lower ranks either. 26-16 in Makushita is not bad but not exceptional. He started running as soon as he hit Juryo, though. He NEVER had a real makekoshi as a sekitori in his entire career which is incredible. For 11 years, till injuries ended his career.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

25 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

26-16 in Makushita is not bad but not exceptional. He started running as soon as he hit Juryo, though. He NEVER had a real makekoshi as a sekitori in his entire career which is incredible.

Indeed it is. Wikipedia doesn't tell the full tale, but that 2-5 at Ms11W stands out as the only "real" MK in his entire career. Was that an injury, or was it a mini-wall he had to overcome?

[Kintamayama 45,527]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Indeed it is. Wikipedia doesn't tell the full tale, but that 2-5 at Ms11W stands out as the only "real" MK in his entire career. Was that an injury, or was it a mini-wall he had to overcome?

Don't remember..

[Gurowake 4,107]

On 10/2/2016 at 00:10, Kintamayama said:

I haven't watched his bouts enough to form an opinion. Looking at the numbers I'd say he will make it to Makuuchi sooner or later. He seems to be taking it slowly but Shirley (3 years and in mid- Makushita), which by me is a good thing. He seems to have hit a mini-wall this basho at Makushita 26, but I'd say in a year he should be in Juryo. I'm just guessing here, since nobody really knows, but I have a feeling Musashimaru is doing it right.

A year to Juryo seems like quite a stretch for someone who spent so long in Sandanme, even if he did go 6-1 in his Makushita debut.  I think that 6-1 is something of a fluke given his past results and it'll be at least a year before he even gets into the top quarter of Makushita.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

8 hours ago, Gurowake said:

A year to Juryo seems like quite a stretch for someone who spent so long in Sandanme, even if he did go 6-1 in his Makushita debut.  I think that 6-1 is something of a fluke given his past results and it'll be at least a year before he even gets into the top quarter of Makushita.

And also hit the wall this time. Some rikishi suddenly get fired up and for no apparent reason  get excellent records and find the way to climb the ranks more quickly. A gut feeling plus a bit of inside information leads me to believe Juryo in 1 year. But we shall see.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Kintamayama

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

As to the potential Forum meeting in 2017, I split all posts pertaining to that, and created a new thread in "Off-topic".  

[sekitori 492]

On September 29, 2016 at 13:55, Kintamayama said:

We get all sports live here but the time difference is a killer. At the moment it's sumo, soccer, MLB and NBA basketball for me, in this order.

Since you are a fan of MLB, did you ever hear Vin Scully announce any Dodger baseball games? He is certainly the best baseball announcer who ever lived and since he announced other sports and did them as well, he probably was also the greatest sports announcer of all time. He retired earlier this week after a career which lasted 67 years. He enjoyed telling stories during games and sometimes told a fairly long one during several players' at bats while still covering the game accurately, pitch by pitch. The man was loved not by just Dodger fans, but by just about everyone who ever listened to him. When I think about great rikishis, I think of Chiyonofuji and Hakuho. When I think about great sports announcers, I think of Vin Scully. If he was given some basic information and with a little practice, I think he could cover sumo as well as he did other sports. With John Gunning doing commentary with him, that could have been an amazing English speaking sumo broadcasting duo.

I hope you had a chance to hear at least a few of his games. They would have been a real treat for a baseball fan like yourself. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by sekitori

[Kintamayama 45,527]

5 hours ago, sekitori said:

Sinc you are a fan of MLB, did you ever hear Vin Scully announce any Dodger baseball games?

 

Nope, sorry..

[RabidJohn 1,855]

I was just reading the kabu/babu changes thread and realised it's a massive area of ignorance for me, so two questions if you don't mind.

Is there any difference between toshiyori, kabu and myoseki, or are they interchangeable terms for the same thing?

Also, if (as has been mentioned a few times) the sale of kabu is now prohibited, what is the mechanism by which they change ownership (as implied, for example, by Akinomaki's statement on 27th August that the "Sanoyama myoseki is now owned by Chiyootori")?

[Kintamayama 45,527]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

I was just reading the kabu/babu changes thread and realised it's a massive area of ignorance for me, so two questions if you don't mind.

Is there any difference between toshiyori, kabu and myoseki, or are they interchangeable terms for the same thing?

Also, if (as has been mentioned a few times) the sale of kabu is now prohibited, what is the mechanism by which they change ownership (as implied, for example, by Akinomaki's statement on 27th August that the "Sanoyama myoseki is now owned by Chiyootori")?

Excellent questions that should be answered by those who know.  From Tamanaogijima's site: "And all of the three are necessary for an understanding: Toshiyori shows the hierarchial aspect: Now the person is an elder, a person of respect, to the young (and sometimes not so young) deshi. Myoseki is the traditional side of being an oyakata: You are picking up a name that can be followed back quite a while, there are neither infinitely many available nor can you simply go on with the shikona you had as a rikishi. Kabu, finally, implies the financial part: You are a shareholder of the Sumo Association, and once you own one you can have a more than decent style of life." 

As for the mechanism- Akinomaki, Asashosakari, Tamanaogijima and others have answers. I don't..

[Akinomaki 40,783]

Buying and selling kabu had to be made illegal to get the new public interest corporate status - else the kyokai would have lost all tax advantages and ownership of the kokugikan. The thread about all this is likely (one of) the most confusing of active threads.

Here is a selection from that thread (very strange format of some posts, surly caused by the forum update) - if nobody else posts more details, I'll give an overview of the "normal" process of kabu exchange later.

On 21.12.2012 at 23:39, Asashosakari said:

depends on how much a current oyakata paid for his share originally - from what I've read, some shares could be had for just 10 or 20 million yen well into the 1980s, while a decade later prices were up to 20x as much.

in the good old days (until about the 1970s) there wasn't really a market - oyakata salaries weren't especially high so becoming one wasn't the same "cushy job for life" deal it is now, being chosen as a kabu successor generally implied some sort of personal relationship to the incumbent, and usually the successor would be responsible for caring for the incumbent and his immediate family afterwards (if he wasn't a family member anyway). So there was a financial component to it back then as well, but in a more "traditional" style. At some point demand and supply came into existence - longer life spans meant more oyakata stayed in until age 65, which meant less turnover among their ranks, which meant some rikishi aspiring to become oyakata had to offer sweeteners, especially if they didn't have a personal relationship to any soon-retiring incumbent. They found some incumbents who likewise didn't have a readymade successor and were happy to take a flat payment even from rikishi they had no particular relation with, and things spiraled from there.

IIRC the Kyokai currently pays very low taxes and only on certain business transactions (which e.g. allows heyas to be the recipients of donations both in money and in kind without major tax headaches); the new status would make the Kyokai officially a not-for-profit corporation that enjoys completely tax-free status, but in return they'd be required to prove sufficient engagement for "the public good" (whatever that means for a sports entity) and to follow fairly stringent transparency rules.

The new rules were discussed a lot, but I haven't seen the actual present statute of the NSK and have no idea what actually made it into it (and is still in it) - and how easy it is to bend the (always very flexible) rules

On 18.10.2012 at 15:38, Akinomaki said:

penalties for money transfer when handing over a myoseki

Including expulsion (jomei).

- have the new owner pay a consultant fee (or similar) to the old one for advising in the heya. The kyokai has to be notified of it. The kyokai checks it and if it is found to be inappropriate, it is to be punished - but it's not clear were the border lies. Another loophole.

The old oyakata can recommend his successor and the myoseki requirements examination committee (only oyakata) checks it and the rijikai (new type with probably more externals) approves.

Checking for money transfer is the crisis committee (with externals)

On 10.1.2013 at 00:41, Asashosakari said:

Mainichi claims that allowing "consulting fees" in the range of 500,000 yen per month is under discussion.

On 1.2.2013 at 11:46, Akinomaki said:

for the application to the new status

- myoseki are managed by the NSK

- the right to recommend the successor is maintained. A toshiyori qualifications examination committee will newly be established, investigating the correctness of the succession and reporting to the riji-kai.

- money exchange in connection with myoseki succession or recommendation is forbidden. In addition to cash, this includes goods and other economic gains. Paying a consultant fee to the former myoseki holder is approved.

- the content of the transactions with the former holder is to be reported to the kyokai once a year (end of February assumed). It will be deliberated in the crisis management committee and if money exchange is detected, with a disciplinary dismissal or contract cancellation an eviction from the sumo kyokai will take place.

- myoseki lending and borrowing is forbidden. Oyakata presently borrowing a myoseki from an owner will get a 3 year postponement period after changing to the new status.

On 3.10.2013 at 15:10, Akinomaki said:

When the change to the new status is implemented, new myoseki certificates will be issued to the oyakata.

I still don't know if that really took place - it would have been easy to declare Kasugayama's old one void

 

On 30.1.2014 at 15:10, Akinomaki said:

For payments to a former holder of a myoseki for receiving guidance from him, a system of tax declaration will be established. The Cabinet Office allows these payments. About inconsistency with prohibiting money exchange for myoseki, Kitanoumi comments: “Paying or not is a matter of the individuals."

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,783]

Getting a kabu is by relation to the former holder. The best (and cheapest) way is to marry his daughter and/or get adopted by him: Takatoriki (Otake was owned by Taiho) married Taiho's 3rd daughter, Asahiyutaka Tatsunami's (the 2 got divorced later, one when kicked out for gambling, the other then had to battle for the kabu at court), Kotonowaka Sadogatake's, Kyokutenho got adopted by Oshima-oyakata when he became Japanese. Maybe even better is to get promised the kabu when you enter the heya:

On 25.1.2016 at 10:57, Akinomaki said:

Ex-Daishoyama was a great hope (that failed like Endo) when he entered and was promised a kabu already then, and on top of that married the daughter of the previous Oitekaze.

In the past multiple kabu owned by one oyakata were allowed, Futagoyama e.g. had many. Usually the top rikishi of the heya get those available, but now the oyakata can't stock them for that anymore and kabu may change hands early - and later for a better rikishi none is left. Former yokozuna or ozeki can remain in the NSK without a kabu for 5 or 3 years and usually they manage to get one during that time, like Kotooshu. When buying and selling was the norm, the koenkai of the rikishi or heya would have to provide most of the money - Akebono had no koenkai anymore, had refused to marry the oyakata's daughter and left the NSK.

Kabu on loan switch back and forth from being allowed to prohibited - but apparently there always had been some.

The owner of a kabu who doesn't use it can give it on loan to another retired/retiring rikishi in need, who already is or fulfills the criteria to become oyakata (Japanese, enough basho as sekitori: 1 in sanyaku, else 20 in makuuchi, else 30 in juryo+, else a special exception) - now basically only done by active rikishi: those from retired oyakata apparently all really get handed over, but a consultant fee is like the money for a kabu on loan (I don't know though if that could be justified for those oyakata on loan who can't own a heya and are simply trainers in one).

The owner of a kabu can more or less freely switch it with another and change name - even through the ichimon barrier from time to time. If a heya is attached to such a switch, that is quite some news (Takamisugi with Chiganoura).

Edited October 26, 2016 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,855]

Thank you very much for the comprehensive answers.

@Akinomaki Yours took some digesting - in fact I'm still processing it!

I was aware of the marry-the-oyakata's-daughter route from Wikipedia, but your statement about Akebono refusing took me aback. Are these arranged marriages? Does the bride-to-be have any say?

I get the "consultancy fee" as a way of dressing up the exchange of funds for corporate tax purposes, but what's the euphemism, if any, for the payments made to active rikishi, such as Chiyootori, for the loan of their otherwise unused kabu?

 

[Harry 67]

Sumo seems to be the last holdout for many old customs in Japan. Can you transfer any other sort of business equity by marrying the current owner's daughter, or is this unique to sumo kabu today? 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Harry

[Benevolance 2,511]

Kintamayama, why hasn't your band written a power ballad about Ikioi and Okinoumi? 

[Asashosakari 19,655]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Sumo seems to be the last holdout for many old customs in Japan. Can you transfer any other sort of business equity by marrying the current owner's daughter, or is this unique to sumo kabu today? 

I'm not sure I understand. There's no legal connection there; the marriage simply provides the reason that kabu and heya are eventually being transferred to rikishi A instead of rikishi B. Surely this isn't a particularly unusual concept? Sons-in-law are inheriting/taking over family businesses all over the world.

[Asashosakari 19,655]

10 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

power ballad about Ikioi

I see what you did there. (I think.)