Goueidou/Takayasu promotion guidelines-Kyushu 2016

[robnplunder 976]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Be that as it may, your scenario regarding Endou will never happen. Leniency with an Ozeki on his second basho of a tsuna run notwithstanding, nobody will ever be promoted to Yokozuna without at least two bashos as Ozeki. Not even Endou, who BTW has never had a kachikoshi north of the M5..

Very good points.   IMHO, a premature promotion isn't necessarily a good thing for rikishi.  

[Tsubame 368]

18 hours ago, robnplunder said:

I think it'd be safer to wait for Goeido to prove himself across 3 basho.   Promoting him after this basho yusho with his history of Kadoban is a bit risky.   I'd hate to see Yokozuna barely going Kachi-koshi or some Ozeki like Kise outperforming him basho after basho.   

Two consecutive yusho as ozeki is a yokozuna promotion, regardless of the results before.

And if you are continuing to perform bad, as maybe before to those two yushos, you will receive a small, fine letter from the NHK with a kind demand to consider to become an oyakata and learn the next gernerations of sekitori your secrets of becoming a yokozuna.

[Stelios 30]

Again, who is saying that the two consecutive yusho should be from the Sekiwake rank? OK, let's consider a scenario with THREE consecutive yusho. One from a whatever Maegashira rank, resulting to Sekiwake. The second one from the Sekiwake rank, definitely leading to ozekihood. And the third one from this ozeki rank. Are you sure a fourth one will be required? I'm not. 

[ryafuji 815]

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 20:22, Kishinoyama said:

If you mean a 13-2 average for those back to back yusho then you are correct. I know that Wakanohana II had a 14-1 yusho and followed that with a 12-3 yusho. 

That's a very generous interpretation... since when have averages been taken into account? I think you just proved Dapeng wrong.

Edited November 22, 2016 by ryafuji

[Tsubame 368]

3 hours ago, Stelios said:

Again, who is saying that the two consecutive yusho should be from the Sekiwake rank? OK, let's consider a scenario with THREE consecutive yusho. One from a whatever Maegashira rank, resulting to Sekiwake. The second one from the Sekiwake rank, definitely leading to ozekihood. And the third one from this ozeki rank. Are you sure a fourth one will be required? I'm not. 

I tend to say yes.

For this scenario you need a maegashira how is capable to win at least one yusho, and that is quite rare. But those "fluke" yusho exist. But this sekitori has to have the skills to win a second censecutive yusho. And to be honest there is no maegashira who can do this. Almost all maegashira winning a yusho failed in the next basho.

If there where such a rikishi of being so consistent and capable of winning two yusho, that rikishi would be already in san'yaku or even above.

On the other hand there can always be the-next-big-thing, the-next-(japanese)-hope, the miracle, you know... the next Endo... A godlike gifted rikishi rising straight upwards in the banzuke, maybe already winning his second turnament in makuuchi. Theoretically that prodigy could win a yusho as maegashira and also the very next yusho as sekiwake, and even possible the third consecutive basho as then shin-ozeki.

And I still think there were reluctant to promote him in this scenario because of his lack of experience in the very top of the banzuke.

[Chiyozakura 148]

4 hours ago, Tsubame said:

Two consecutive yusho as ozeki is a yokozuna promotion, regardless of the results before

I have to disagree. Tamanishiki won three consecutive Yusho as an Ozeki and was not promoted. He had to wait two more years until he took the next Yusho and got the nod. Admitted, this was 80 years ago but it shows it can happen.

If I were to decide I would not promote Goeido even with a second Yusho because he was a terrible Ozeki. That is also where I see the difference to Musashimaru who was a strong Ozeki who just lacked the drive. Until last basho Goeido was among the worst Ozeki I have seen and definitely the worst not to lose his rank within the first two years.

[Dapeng 236]

17 hours ago, Morningstar said:

Futabayama never had a 15 and 0 tournament until he was a Yokozuna. He did have two 11 and 0 tournaments before he was made Yokozuna. This is because back in the old old days, they had shorter tournaments, and less of them. It is statistically much easier to go 11 and 0 than it is to go 15 and 0. Especially when you have only three tournaments a year, so there is plenty of time to heal and train.

 

Also Hakuho is the GOAT, not Futabayama.

You are right, however, he was in his 69 winning streak......

[Bumpkin 438]

1 hour ago, Chiyozakura said:

I have to disagree. Tamanishiki won three consecutive Yusho as an Ozeki and was not promoted. He had to wait two more years until he took the next Yusho and got the nod. Admitted, this was 80 years ago but it shows it can happen.

If I were to decide I would not promote Goeido even with a second Yusho because he was a terrible Ozeki. That is also where I see the difference to Musashimaru who was a strong Ozeki who just lacked the drive. Until last basho Goeido was among the worst Ozeki I have seen and definitely the worst not to lose his rank within the first two years.

Tamanishiki turned down Yokozuna promotion.  I don't know why, probably felt, "I'm not worthy".

[ryafuji 815]

2 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

I have to disagree. Tamanishiki won three consecutive Yusho as an Ozeki and was not promoted. He had to wait two more years until he took the next Yusho and got the nod. Admitted, this was 80 years ago but it shows it can happen.

If I were to decide I would not promote Goeido even with a second Yusho because he was a terrible Ozeki. That is also where I see the difference to Musashimaru who was a strong Ozeki who just lacked the drive. Until last basho Goeido was among the worst Ozeki I have seen and definitely the worst not to lose his rank within the first two years.

Chiyonoyama was not promoted after winning consecutive yusho as an ozeki in November 1949 and January 1950. Apparently the reasoning was that he was young (for the time) at 23 and the second yusho was only a 12-3 so the Kyokai were unsure he was ready. But his case (and of course Tamanishiki's) predates the forming of the Yokozuna Deliberation Council. I cannot imagine a situation in which the YDC would not recommend promotion after two consecutive yusho at ozeki.

[Dapeng 236]

13 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Be that as it may, your scenario regarding Endou will never happen. Leniency with an Ozeki on his second basho of a tsuna run notwithstanding, nobody will ever be promoted to Yokozuna without at least two bashos as Ozeki. Not even Endou, who BTW has never had a kachikoshi north of the M5..

Neither me. Just a hypothesis. There will not be another Futabayama for another hundred years. But if appeared, who knows that NSK will not break the two-ozeki basho rule to promote him?

[Kintamayama 45,530]

6 hours ago, Stelios said:

Again, who is saying that the two consecutive yusho should be from the Sekiwake rank? OK, let's consider a scenario with THREE consecutive yusho. One from a whatever Maegashira rank, resulting to Sekiwake. The second one from the Sekiwake rank, definitely leading to ozekihood. And the third one from this ozeki rank. Are you sure a fourth one will be required? I'm not. 

Yes, I am sure. I am positive. I'm not even sure a yusho from Maegashira and a second yusho from Sekiwake would even lead to Ozekihood for that matter. Two consecutive yushos must be from the Ozeki rank in order to become Yokozuna.

[Kintamayama 45,530]

10 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Neither me. Just a hypothesis. There will not be another Futabayama for another hundred years. But if appeared, who knows that NSK will not break the two-ozeki basho rule to promote him?

Again, Futabayama fought under totally different circumstances. 3 bashos a year, 11 days-can't compare. Sure, the NSK can decide on a total change of rules, but let's be realistic here.

[Dapeng 236]

2 hours ago, Tsubame said:

I tend to say yes.

For this scenario you need a maegashira how is capable to win at least one yusho, and that is quite rare. But those "fluke" yusho exist. But this sekitori has to have the skills to win a second censecutive yusho. And to be honest there is no maegashira who can do this. Almost all maegashira winning a yusho failed in the next basho.

If there where such a rikishi of being so consistent and capable of winning two yusho, that rikishi would be already in san'yaku or even above.

On the other hand there can always be the-next-big-thing, the-next-(japanese)-hope, the miracle, you know... the next Endo... A godlike gifted rikishi rising straight upwards in the banzuke, maybe already winning his second turnament in makuuchi. Theoretically that prodigy could win a yusho as maegashira and also the very next yusho as sekiwake, and even possible the third consecutive basho as then shin-ozeki.

And I still think there were reluctant to promote him in this scenario because of his lack of experience in the very top of the banzuke.

Still, it depends. If a highly popular rikishi who has been performing strongly since juryo (e.g. 10 wins or better every basho) and now he just becomes a komusubi. From now on if he obtains a jun-yusho as new komusubi, another jun-yusho next basho as new sekiwake, and then two consecutive 15-0 yushoes as sekiwake and new ozeki, I believe he will be promoted to yokuzuna right away. 

[Dapeng 236]

As to Goeindo's yokozuna run, I think a 13-2 yusho this basho will be OK, and a 14-1 jun-yusho (beating Hakuho!) will also result in promotion. But a 12-3 yusho or 13-2 non-yusho will probably not.  

If Kisenosato goes 15-0, he will probably be promoted too.

Otherwise no promotion. The bar can't be further lowered for these two.

[ryafuji 815]

1 minute ago, Dapeng said:

If Kisenosato goes 15-0, he will probably be promoted too.

After a 10-5 collapse in September?? Not a cat in hell's chance.

[Chiyozakura 148]

1 hour ago, Bumpkin said:

Tamanishiki turned down Yokozuna promotion.  I don't know why, probably felt, "I'm not worthy".

As far as I know he was considered to be a bully and not the example that was expected from a Yokozuna. So it was decided he was not worthy. I have not read anywhere so far that he turned it down. After that he matured and became a role model Yokozuna, Nishonoseki Oyakata and the de facto leader of Sumo while still an active rikishi. If I remember correctly he had seveal deshi including the original Tamanoumis.

Chiyonoyama is not a good example as he would have been promoted to Yokozuna had his Oyakata not decided that he was not ready, yet.

I agree that currently two Yusho at Ozeki is a Yokozuna promotion as long as the Yusho is won with 12 or more wins. If they are willing to promote Goeido after that Ozeki career they will probably promote anyone.

[robnplunder 976]

10 hours ago, ryafuji said:

After a 10-5 collapse in September?? Not a cat in hell's chance.

 Goeido went from 7-8 to 15-0.   It's possible for Kisenosato to do the same.   If he does, Yokozuna title will be well deserved.   

Edited November 15, 2016 by robnplunder

[Kintamayama 45,530]

1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

 Goeido went from 7-8 to 15-0.   It's possible for Kisenosato to do the same.   If he does, Yokozuna title will be well deserved.   

Yes, if he gets the yusho next basho as well. Or a yusho equivalent. Or a playoff loss. Otherwise, even if he goes 19-0 this basho he won't be promoted this time.