Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2016 ** (SPOILERS)

[Ryoshishokunin 323]

I have nothing against people trying the henka, and everything against idiots that fall for them.  If you close your eyes and run in a direction, it's not my obligation to stop you.  

[Andreas21 188]

1 hour ago, Tsubame said:

What will happen if Goeido will finish 12-3J this basho

The Tsuna issue aside, what I found really remarkable is the quality of Goeido's Sumo.

Throughout his Makuuchi career I have rarely seen this type of Goeido: focused, aggressive, great balance, with a plan, and a plan B if it goes wrong. I would say, ranging from once in a basho to 50% (not often).

Then we had this other Goeido: hapless, lackluster, planless. Easy prey for the top Rikishi, and even lesser Rikishi could beat him.

Throughout the last two bashos every single bout was very good. This time he lost thrice - but still very good Sumo - it was close all three times, and more or less unlucky. Last basho he was lucky a number of times.

I just hope that he can keep this level of Sumo, even when his hope for the Tsuna is gone. It is really a pleasure to watch his bouts, see his development.

 

[Dwale 419]

1 minute ago, Andreas21 said:

The Tsuna issue aside, what I found really remarkable is the quality of Goeido's Sumo.

Throughout his Makuuchi career I have rarely seen this type of Goeido: focused, aggressive, great balance, with a plan, and a plan B if it goes wrong. I would say, ranging from once in a basho to 50% (not often).

Then we had this other Goeido: hapless, lackluster, planless. Easy prey for the top Rikishi, and even lesser Rikishi could beat him.

Throughout the last two bashos every single bout was very good. This time he lost thrice - but still very good Sumo - it was close all three times, and more or less unlucky. Last basho he was lucky a number of times.

I just hope that he can keep this level of Sumo, even when his hope for the Tsuna is gone. It is really a pleasure to watch his bouts, see his development.

 

Agreed. He appears to have leveled up, promotion or no.

[Dapeng 236]

2 hours ago, Tsubame said:

What will happen if Goeido will finish 12-3J this basho (and with doing so, he would have beaten the yusho winner, which is - I guess - either Harumafuji or Kakuryu) to his promotion discussion? Will this result be sufficient for a direct promotion or "just" extent his tsuna run to the next basho?

He will lose another 1 or 2 and there will be no post-basho promotion. Fortunately, Kise has beaten Hakuho so this basho becomes interesting and worth following...... as someone once said, (last basho) "was so enjoyable without him (Hakuho)"......

Hope Kise can finish 13-2J and revive his zunatori......

[ALAKTORN 346]

Hakuhō must be injured. Will ishiura fight Kise/Go on day 12? How are they gonna stop his yūshō?

[hamcornheinz 839]

I would love to see a rikishi go full orthodox beard, but I don't think any right now are able to. 

[Rocks 1,809]

7 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

Hakuhō must be injured. Will ishiura fight Kise/Go on day 12? How are they gonna stop his yūshō?

He can gnaw on an ozeki's leg all day, it won't do him any good.  They will slap him down quickly.

[Rocks 1,809]

2 hours ago, Tsubame said:

What will happen if Goeido will finish 12-3J this basho (and with doing so, he would have beaten the yusho winner, which is - I guess - either Harumafuji or Kakuryu) to his promotion discussion? Will this result be sufficient for a direct promotion or "just" extent his tsuna run to the next basho?

You would think not but to get to 12-3J he would not only have beaten the probably winner but also all 3 Yokozuna. That might be enough.

[Bumpkin 438]

5 hours ago, Benihana said:

Yes he can.

Today he was robbed, Sato touched the ground first, no doubt.

Sato won!  It does not matter who "touched the ground first".  Dead body = loss!

[Sakura 1,495]

That Hak - Kise bout was the most entertaining one I've seen in my short sumo watching experience. I really didn't know what was going to happen at any given point.

[Tsubame 368]

34 minutes ago, hamcornheinz said:

I would love to see a rikishi go full orthodox beard, but I don't think any right now are able to. 

Are there any rules (formal or informal) regarding the allowed facial features of rikishis? 

There were some famous sideburns (Takamiyama, Toki), a onetime goatee from Shohozan and also some "five o'clock shadows" esp. from some russians. But despite those few you never see a beard.

Ofc I know that asian men often have a weak growth of beards, but no beards at all surprises me.

[Benihana 1,937]

1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

Sato won!  It does not matter who "touched the ground first".  Dead body = loss!

If Aminishiki was a "dead body" today, then i've seen some rotten corpses win in the past.

[Bumpkin 438]

12 minutes ago, Benihana said:

If Aminishiki was a "dead body" today, then i've seen some rotten corpses win in the past.

I re-watched the bout.  Sato pushed Aminishiki off the dohyo.  At the moment Sato touched down, Aminishiki could not win the bout.  BTW, Kinta, just before the match began, I saw your future wife walking down the west hanamichi over Sato's shoulder.  She's a beauty!

Edited November 22, 2016 by Bumpkin

[Sumozumo 240]

Seems like if he got Sato to touch down he could win!

[Rocks 1,809]

31 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

I re-watched the bout.  Sato pushed Aminishiki off the dohyo.  At the moment Sato touched down, Aminishiki could not win the bout.  BTW, Kinta, just before the match began, I saw your future wife walking down the west hanamichi over Sato's shoulder.  She's a beauty!

Not win the bout? Aminishiki wasn't even over the dohyo anymore. Clear Sato win.

[robnplunder 976]

Very disappointed by shinpan/judging at this basho.   Where are the mattas for not putting hands down?  There have been one too man missed monoii & calls - a few rikishi got robbed by the decisions (or lack of).   I don't think throat grabbing is legal in sumo.   They need to shape up the rest of the way.  

Edited November 22, 2016 by robnplunder

[Ryoshishokunin 323]

You don't have to be over the dohyo to win.  You don't have to be touching the ground to win.  

You lose if (and only if):

1. You touch the ground outside the dohyo

2. You touch the ground with some part of the body other than your foot

3. You do something illegal (hair-pulling, usually)

The dead-body rule comes up extremely rarely, to the point where you can mostly ignore that exists.   The position of your body doesn't matter: you can stand on the tawara all you like, and you can jump in the air to avoid hitting the ground, whatever.  An awful lot of bouts end with both rikishi reaching a losing position in close proximity to each other: you just have to lose second.  

In the case of the Sato-Aminishiki bout, both rikishi were doing something to win: One was pushing the other out of the ring, while the other was being thrown/pushed to the ground.  By my count, Sato hits the ground five video frames before Aminishki does, and even if you make the (wrong) argument about 'plane of the dohyo', he still hits the ground first by about two frames.   But in real time, everybody missed it or disagreed, and if you watch the footage at full speed you can see why that happened.  

[Asojima 2,874]

Aminishiki's body was so dead that rigor mortis was setting in.

[Asashosakari 19,661]

12 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

An awful lot of bouts end with both rikishi reaching a losing position in close proximity to each other: you just have to lose second.  

Maybe ideally; in practice such decisions often go in favour of the rikishi who's perceived as the attacker, even if he goes down slightly earlier.

[Benihana 1,937]

13 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Aminishiki's body was so dead that rigor mortis was setting in.

And Sato fell like a body bag, before Aminishki went airborne.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Benihana

[Katooshu 3,334]

Kise-Hakuho = awesome

[dingo 1,294]

Ishiura one loss behind the leader and on par with Harumafuji - now that's a scenario I'd wager not many imagined! 

And btw, it looked like Kotoshogiku tried to kick Goeido in the kintama just before he lost :D

[lackmaker 438]

49 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

You don't have to be over the dohyo to win.  You don't have to be touching the ground to win.  

You lose if (and only if):

1. You touch the ground outside the dohyo

2. You touch the ground with some part of the body other than your foot

3. You do something illegal (hair-pulling, usually)

The dead-body rule comes up extremely rarely, to the point where you can mostly ignore that exists.   The position of your body doesn't matter: you can stand on the tawara all you like, and you can jump in the air to avoid hitting the ground, whatever.  An awful lot of bouts end with both rikishi reaching a losing position in close proximity to each other: you just have to lose second.  

In the case of the Sato-Aminishiki bout, both rikishi were doing something to win: One was pushing the other out of the ring, while the other was being thrown/pushed to the ground.  By my count, Sato hits the ground five video frames before Aminishki does, and even if you make the (wrong) argument about 'plane of the dohyo', he still hits the ground first by about two frames.   But in real time, everybody missed it or disagreed, and if you watch the footage at full speed you can see why that happened.  

2. Sole of foot

[rzombie1988 159]

My thoughts:

- Here's what happened in Hakuho/Kise. Hak put his right shoulder in, which he usually does. However, Kise saw it coming and got his arm behind Hak's right elbow. This made him able to push off Hak and completely screw his gameplan. Hak was done after as he couldn't get a belt grip and honestly didn't even try to, leading to the loss. Kise's great footwork got him the match here.

- Time to see how good Kakuryu is right now. 10-0's good but his best opponent so far was an injured Terunofuji. Not the best way to determine how good someone is doing. I'd be really surprised if he can make it out of the Hakuho/Kise/Harumafuji grinder without a loss.

- Takayasu's Ozeki run is donezo. He looked pretty slow and uninspiring all basho.

- Was surprised to see Ishiura school Sokokourai, as I think Soko is a really underrated wrestler.

[Chiyozakura 148]

1 hour ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

You don't have to be over the dohyo to win.  You don't have to be touching the ground to win.  

You lose if (and only if):

1. You touch the ground outside the dohyo

2. You touch the ground with some part of the body other than your foot

3. You do something illegal (hair-pulling, usually)

The dead-body rule comes up extremely rarely, to the point where you can mostly ignore that exists.   The position of your body doesn't matter: you can stand on the tawara all you like, and you can jump in the air to avoid hitting the ground, whatever.  An awful lot of bouts end with both rikishi reaching a losing position in close proximity to each other: you just have to lose second. 

Which is not true. The dead body rule means you lose if you cannot do anything to win the bout anymore even if your opponent steps out before you. What makes it so interesting is that in many cases it is debatable whether a rikishi could still help himself. An easy case for that rule is a tsuridashi where one rikishi carries the other out of the ring. Even if he completely steps out he is the winner because there is no way his opponent could counter him.

I agree with Asashosakari, though, that very often the aggressor is declared the winner which has been Sato in the mentioned example. It is like Taiho said: You better win decisively, then there will be no discussions.