Basho Talk - Hatsu Basho 2017 ** (SPOILERS)

[Rocks 1,809]

2 hours ago, Dwale said:

Yeah, Mitakeumi made a good showing. I like him a lot and want him to do well, but I've liked Kisenosato for way longer, so... But it was an excellent match. Kinda understated, more a smolder than an explosion. Confident, patient sumo from Kisenosato, but Mitakeumi definitely giving him a run for his money.

I can't believe Osunaarashi gave up a win to the Pillsbury mascot. -.- Come on, man. >.<

I'm not surprised. I figured he would. He was bound to win one sooner or later. Osunaarashi can't move around much with his injuries and with his height the busy little guys are going to give him the most trouble.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Sōkokurai is a great rikishi that’s somehow never mentioned.

I hate Chiyoshōma.

What happened to Tochiōzan?

I’m loving this new Tamawashi.

Was surprised Kotoshōgiku lost that bout, he had it won.

Hakuhō with the scare, but I still like him for the yūshō. Harumafuji might go kyūjō… I have no idea why Kakuryū is losing.

[Chiyozakura 148]

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

[dingo 1,294]

6 hours ago, Jyuunomori said:

Maybe Kakuryuu should retire, if he continues like this it would be disgrace to Sumo.

*sarcasm.

On the other hand two losses in a row is not exactly Yokozuna-like results either... Unless that Yokozuna is Harumafuji ;) 

[ryafuji 815]

1 hour ago, Chiyozakura said:

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

Pro debut in January (2002), makuuchi debut in January (2005), makuuchi yusho in January (2016) - so retirement in January would be consistent   Plus no-one is using his Hidenoyama kabu so he wouldn't  be putting anyone out of a job....

[Andreas21 188]

On 1/10/2017 at 10:04, Akinomaki said:

You can see how much better Mitakeumi is than Shodai in how much better he was against Hakuho.

You're kidding, right? Judging on just a single bout each?

Looking at the last year, 90 bouts, of both I see a quite similar performance and Sumo quality slightly in favor of Shodai.

Mitakeumi is on steam this basho, but let's see how long it lasts.

[dingo 1,294]

2 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

Retiring before 8 losses would be incredibly stupid. 

[Atenzan 1,084]

3 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

 

Sōkokurai is a great rikishi that’s somehow never mentioned.

 

 

I love the man. His throws are my favourite, in fact among the lower maegashira (Oosunaarashi excluded, I want to believe that he is a future Ozeki hope) his sumo is probably my favourite. 

[Chiyozakura 148]

2 minutes ago, dingo said:

Retiring before 8 losses would be incredibly stupid. 

Most guys who retired at Ozeki retired before losing 8: Kaio, Musoyama, Hokutenyu, Asashio, Wakashimazu, Masuiyama, Takanohana, Asahikuni. Now that I think of it I don't remember a single Ozeki retiring directly after a full make koshi at that rank.They usually quit when they realize they are not good enough anymore and in my view Kotoshogiku has reached that point. Better leave now than to prove it as a fact.

[Akinomaki 40,774]

2 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

On 10.1.2017 at 10:04, Akinomaki said:

You can see how much better Mitakeumi is than Shodai in how much better he was against Hakuho.

You're kidding, right?

Right.

I was hinting semi-sarcastically that you can hardly find a relevant amount which Mitakeumi did better: this maybe tiny bit and in just one bout among many is exactly how much he is better - a matter of taste, not more - but if you want to see it in there, you can.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Arn 24]

3 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

Sōkokurai is a great rikishi that’s somehow never mentioned.

Yes, I think he is underrated (if you can be that in a sport which builds its ranking on results). His calm sumo looks a bit like Takarafuji's to me.

One (yet another) thing Hakuho is really great at is recovering from a bad position. These "scares" are quite common with him, but somehow he almost always wins anyway.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Arn

[Arn 24]

3 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

I agree. But, to my amazement, I am almost a year older, and still (again, being a student) I have yet to establish myself in my choosen profession...

[K. Sear 27]

1 hour ago, Chiyozakura said:

Most guys who retired at Ozeki retired before losing 8: Kaio, Musoyama, Hokutenyu, Asashio, Wakashimazu, Masuiyama, Takanohana, Asahikuni. Now that I think of it I don't remember a single Ozeki retiring directly after a full make koshi at that rank.They usually quit when they realize they are not good enough anymore and in my view Kotoshogiku has reached that point. Better leave now than to prove it as a fact.

Kotooshu and Baruto didn't retire until after a few tournaments at sekiwake.  While they were kyujo in their demotion basho and didn't really "lose", they certainly didn't retire when they were "not good enough anymore" either.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

I like Sokokurai too. He's another of my faves for his occasional flashes of superb belt sumo. Only occasional though...

Of the 5 unbeaten rikishi I'm still favouring Hak to take it, with Kise as his only serious rival. They'll meet on zenshuraku, won't they? That could be interesting...

Another (not unexpected) loss for Mitakeumi today, but so what? He still looked excellent and he's past his hardest opponents. If he's not on an ozeki run, it's the prelude to his pre-ozeki sanyaku residency. These old O/Y can still be buggers to beat, but he knows he can do it now, and they're not getting any better, while he is.

I see Moti is still tipping Shodai to beat Mita to ozeki. I ain't arguing, but what about Tamawashi? That 10-5 + gino-sho at KW last time would count, wouldn't it? I know he has to improve on that, but at 4-1 he's staying on course and seemingly carrying on where he left off. Can he follow through?

Has the YDC chairman's comment hastened Harumafuji's intai? He's hurting himself even further to get wins when he should be going kyujo.

I know there's some expectation that Kotoshogiku is closest to intai, but I never considered it might be as early as tomorrow! Really? I don't know enough about him to know whether he'll quit when his rank is at stake or be one of those happy to carry on as a sekitori until a fall from juryo looms.

[dingo 1,294]

49 minutes ago, K. Sear said:

Kotooshu and Baruto didn't retire until after a few tournaments at sekiwake.  While they were kyujo in their demotion basho and didn't really "lose", they certainly didn't retire when they were "not good enough anymore" either.

Also, Kaio retired when he clinched the career wins record. If he had quit when he realised he was not good enough anymore then he would've retired several years earlier :) Likewise for Chiyotaikai who was actually demoted to sekiwake before he retired. I think Kotoshogiku doesn't feel totally powerless yet, especially just a year after his yusho.

Edited January 12, 2017 by dingo

[Blue_Wolf 24]

Injured Ama, losing Kakuryu, shaky Hakuho and other ozeki's down already Kisenosato has a big chance this basho.

[Harry 67]

6 minutes ago, Blue_Wolf said:

Injured Ama, losing Kakuryu, shaky Hakuho and other ozeki's down already Kisenosato has a big chance this basho.

Sadly, once Kise realizes this he'll feel pressured to win and he'll lose. I hope not but his past performance has been the same as this scenario.Prove me wrong this time, Kise!

[Asashosakari 19,653]

3 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

Most guys who retired at Ozeki retired before losing 8: Kaio, Musoyama, Hokutenyu, Asashio, Wakashimazu, Masuiyama, Takanohana, Asahikuni. Now that I think of it I don't remember a single Ozeki retiring directly after a full make koshi at that rank.They usually quit when they realize they are not good enough anymore and in my view Kotoshogiku has reached that point. Better leave now than to prove it as a fact.

Most of those guys weren't even kadoban when they retired, so I'm not sure what their cases are supposed to teach us, other than "ozeki treat their careers a lot differently now". The current trend is clearly to ride things out to the bitter end, and it would be somewhat surprising if Kotoshogiku doesn't.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Asashosakari

[pmac 34]

has anyone the ura bout? cant find it....... would be much appreciated!

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

6 hours ago, Chiyozakura said:

If I were Kotoshogiku I would retire tomorrow morning. He will probably not make kachi koshi and is just days short of his 33rd birthday. Time to call it a career.

Are you suggesting that Kotoshogiku should have retired after his 1-3 start in Nagoya 2015, being kadodan back then as well?

He would have missed out on his first Makuuchi Yusho three basho later. Just saying...

[Asojima 2,874]

47 minutes ago, pmac said:

has anyone the ura bout? cant find it....... would be much appreciated!

Here  at 1:05.

 

[pmac 34]

11 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Here  at 1:05.

 

thx alot for that, couldnt watch the jurio results before i saw this bout! :)

well, i love this kid........ looks like we get to see him in makuuchi next basho, hope he doesnt get destroyed there!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by pmac

[Chiyozakura 148]

50 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Most of those guys weren't even kadoban when they retired, so I'm not sure what their cases are supposed to teach us, other than "ozeki treat their careers a lot differently now". The current trend is clearly to ride things out to the bitter end, and it would be somewhat surprising if Kotoshogiku doesn't.

These cases were an answer to the statement that it would be stupid to retire before definitely losing your Ozeki rank. All the guys mentioned retired when they realized they could not hack it any longer and I personally include Kaio in that list because he was on course to his first real make koshi in ages.

I think Kotoshogiku is in a different position now than he was 1,5 years ago. The young guys are getting stronger and he appears weaker to me than some months ago. The only guys he has beaten so far are still winless and Takarafuji has no other victory than over Kotoshogiku. If the Yokozuna stay in the basho I fancy them all beating him. Add to that some losses against the likes of Kisenosato, Goeido, Tamawashi, Mitakeumi or whoever he will face and his chances for kachi koshi are looking slim.

Call me an oldtimer, nostalgic or whatever but I prefer the Ozeki to retire before they lay proof that they were done for.

[Asashosakari 19,653]

59 minutes ago, Chiyozakura said:

These cases were an answer to the statement that it would be stupid to retire before definitely losing your Ozeki rank. (...) Call me an oldtimer, nostalgic or whatever but I prefer the Ozeki to retire before they lay proof that they were done for.

The problem is that it didn't really respond to that "it's stupid to do it this way" claim, because (as you're clearly aware yourself) all you've done by listing them is offer support for your differing personal preference. 

59 minutes ago, Chiyozakura said:

All the guys mentioned retired when they realized they could not hack it any longer (...)

That's a clear case of begging the question. How do you know they actually couldn't compete any longer, other than inferring it from their decision to retire? As Jakusotsu's example with Kotoshogiku shows - maybe some of these ozeki just got it terribly wrong?

Stars in other sports retire and unretire all the time, so I'd be wary of assuming that sumotori have some increased level of insight in determining the "correct" moment to go. All we know is that they don't try comebacks because they're not allowed to. I'd be highly surprised if none of these ozeki ever came to think that they left too soon.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Asashosakari
Some late-night confusion removed

[sekitori 492]

I don't believe that Sokokurai is even close to being a great rikishi. He happens to be a very good mid-maegashira rikishi who has overcome overwhelming odds to be where he is now. He was expelled from sumo, was exonerated, reinstated, and  became more successful than anyone could have imagined. Because of those difficulties which would have destroyed the careers of others,  he has become one of my favorites. 

As for Hakuho, he often wins after being in very difficult situations in which most rikishis could not recover. I believe such a talent is called "ring sense". He is constantly aware of his position on the dohyo. The only other rikishi whose ring sense compares to his was Asashoryu. Watch this video against Kotonowaka where they both were falling toward the dohyo at virtually the same time. Yet Asashoryu managed to "levitate" for a split second, somehow shoving Kotonowaka away at the end so that his back actually rose up slightly. That move allowed Kotonowaka to touch the clay first. I'm still amazed every time I see it. 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by sekitori