Did these ozeki have yokozuna potential?

[PawnSums 59]

I mean, I know rikishi like Raiden did but did these ozeki have yokozuna potential to you?

Hitachiiwa

Kotooshu

Takanohana I

Chiyotaikai

Hokutenyu

 

(Edit:) And How About Miyabiyama?

 

I wonder....

Edited February 4, 2017 by PawnSums

[JariM 29]

Kotoōshū and Chiyotaikai are the only ones who have been active while I was following sumo.

Out of those two I think Chiyotaikai had more potential.

Having said that I wasn't able to see him when he was in his prime. Anyway he did score 3 Yūshō so he did have the drive and ability to win.

Kotoōshū on the other hand seemed to be a little bit too comfortable at his Ōzeki rank. Apart from his Ōzeki-run and his Yūshō he was lucky to get 10 wins in a basho.

Edited January 30, 2017 by JariM

[PawnSums 59]

  On 30/01/2017 at 17:25, JariM said:

Kotoōshū and Chiyotaikai are the only ones who have been active while I was following sumo.

Yes, of course I did not expect people who have seen Hitachiiwa active! I meant by judging what's on the database as well.

Edited January 30, 2017 by PawnSums

[RabidJohn 1,855]

The glib answer is no, otherwise they'd have been yokozuna.

But that doesn't take into account factors such as career-ending injuries. Currently there's Terunofuji, who definitely had the potential before he broke his knees - and that's a common enough story in sumo.

Looking at the records of those on your list, maybe Chiyotaikai had the potential before his injuries got the better of him, but being kadoban 13 times in his later career is a pretty clear indication that the potential had gone.

[Dapeng 236]

There were yokozuna who were weaker than those ozeki. They were promoted between the change of generations, for example in a period when a dominant yokozuna had declined and the next dominant one yet to come. Those ozeki for example Kaio and Chiyotaikai were unlucky to live with two dominant yokozuna who were on their peaks. If their prime time were in these days both of them could have been promoted.

[Asashosakari 19,676]

Chiyotaikai had the same issue most pusher-thrusters have, namely that everything has to go just right for them to execute their technique successfully. Obviously he mastered that a lot better than, say, Toyohibiki, but he was still pretty vulnerable to more versatile rikishi and to classic yotsu fighters. All in all he never even managed consecutive 12-win records, so it's not like only Asashoryu stood in his way. (And by the time Hakuho rose to prominence, Taikai's prime was over.) There might have been periods in sumo history in which the path to the tsuna would have been clear for a Chiyotaikai-level rikishi, but not many. He had a historically very good opportunity anyway, in the first 3-4 years after his ozeki promotion (before Asashoryu came up), and it didn't happen.

Kotooshu just didn't have a yokozuna-worthy body, in that he was arguably too lean for his height to project sufficient power, and also in that his knees struggled to support even that lean body. If he'd been able to go up to 170-180 kg and combine that with his technical skills, he might have stood a chance, but it just wasn't physically possible for him. (And I think that also contributed to the aforementioned sense of comfort he seemed to exhibit with his ozeki position.)

Edited January 30, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Asojima 2,874]

Takanohana I had a timing problem.  He peaked at the same time as Wajima and Kitanoumi.  He also was in a very competitive era when the meatgrinder was almost always loaded with potential and actual yusho winners.  12-3 and 13-2 yushos were common.  The yusho winner had to get past Hasegawa, Kaiketsu, Kongo, Mienoumi, Mutsuarashi, Kiyokuni, Maenoyama, Washuyama and several other stalwarts. He lived in a tough time. 

[Swami 245]

Hokutenyu had the physique, strength and technique to be yokozuna but lacked fighting spirit - he was also hit badly by his battle with diabetes in 1986/87 and Konishiki falling on his leg in March 1987.

 

Swami

[Fukurou 534]

How about someone who maybe should have stayed an ozeki?

People talk about how Konishiki might have been an embarrassment as yokozuna. Anyone recently look at Wakanohana (III)? While he managed 2 consecutive yusho (with some odd looking records by the yok/ozeki contingent those basho), IMO he wasn't a very good yokozuna. For one thing, he was hurt all the time - he missed all or part of 6 of his 11 yokozuna basho.

[Swami 245]

  On 03/02/2017 at 05:04, Fukurou said:

How about someone who maybe should have stayed an ozeki?

People talk about how Konishiki might have been an embarrassment as yokozuna. Anyone recently look at Wakanohana (III)? While he managed 2 consecutive yusho (with some odd looking records by the yok/ozeki contingent those basho), IMO he wasn't a very good yokozuna. For one thing, he was hurt all the time - he missed all or part of 6 of his 11 yokozuna basho.

Likewise Onokuni, who was the first yokozuna to get make-koshi in a completed 15 day basho.

 

Swami

[Chiyozakura 148]

Onokuni and Wakanohana were very different cases. Wakanohana totally overachieved. He made the best out of what he had. In that regards he can be considered a role model because against all odds he made Yokozuna at a time where the other top guys were enormously huge. He fought them head on and was deservedly promoted to Yokozuna. Before he was promoted the general concensus was that it would be very difficult for him to hold that position and with a little bad luck because of injuries the end came quickly.

Onokuni on the other hand was early on heralded as the guy who could become the dominant force of his generation. He had all the potential in the world. But he did not live up to it. He gained too much weight which slowed him down, did not enough practice, did not do degeiko, then he dropped a lot of weight and with that lost a lot of power. If we talk about potential he was an underachiever. He could have won a lot more Yusho.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

  On 03/02/2017 at 05:04, Fukurou said:

How about someone who maybe should have stayed an ozeki?

People talk about how Konishiki might have been an embarrassment as yokozuna. Anyone recently look at Wakanohana (III)? While he managed 2 consecutive yusho (with some odd looking records by the yok/ozeki contingent those basho), IMO he wasn't a very good yokozuna. For one thing, he was hurt all the time - he missed all or part of 6 of his 11 yokozuna basho.

There have been many yokozuna whose greatest achievement was what they did as ozeki to get their promotion. Wakanohana III was one of them and has nothing to be ashamed of. It was extraordinary that he ever managed it.

[Churaumi 745]

Kotooshu got hard to watch the last few tournaments, Had he been promoted, even when he was on fire, I don't know if he had the mental resilience to start a basho poorly as a yokozuna and force victories like a yokozuna needs to be able to do. I think he would have had a short reign as a yokozuna before going makekoshi.

I'm surprised with the talk of ozeki being affected by health Baruto's name hadn't come up yet. His body was his biggest limitation.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Onokuni is very often targeted as a "weak" yokozuna (I am guilty of this myself). I often compare Kakuryu to him. I have to believe that the Ozeki who had potential was Kaio. His injuries obviously held him to where he was at, but I am one that feels his performance towards the end of 2004 (13-2Y, 12-3J) SHOULD have warranted his promotion. Alas, hindsight is 20/20, and it was not to be, but his Ozeki career benefitted from it, as he was able to stay in till 2011, whereas if he had gotten his tsuna, his retirement would have been forced maybe as soon as 2006.

[dingo 1,303]

  On 03/02/2017 at 19:13, Churaumi said:

Kotooshu got hard to watch the last few tournaments, Had he been promoted, even when he was on fire, I don't know if he had the mental resilience to start a basho poorly as a yokozuna and force victories like a yokozuna needs to be able to do. I think he would have had a short reign as a yokozuna before going makekoshi.

I'm surprised with the talk of ozeki being affected by health Baruto's name hadn't come up yet. His body was his biggest limitation.

I don't know if Baruto had Yokozuna potential, he was too one-sided to be able to constantly reach that level of results. But I agree, he was definitely also affected by his unfortunate injuries and could perhaps even still be active if it weren't for his bad knee. 

[Harry 67]

Even with a shortened career I agree that Kaio should have got the rope. His long ozeki career was good too but I thought he deserved the promotion.

[Churaumi 745]

  On 03/02/2017 at 19:57, dingo said:

I don't know if Baruto had Yokozuna potential, he was too one-sided to be able to constantly reach that level of results. But I agree, he was definitely also affected by his unfortunate injuries and could perhaps even still be active if it weren't for his bad knee. 

I have to agree based on what actually happened. But, at least in the time I've been following sumo, Baruto has been the biggest "what if." But, sumo is as much a test of durability as it is strength, technique, and heart, especially at the top levels.

I suppose it gets a bit philosophical. Some rikishi, like Joukouryu or Masunoyama, get hurt or debilitated early in their careers. I suppose there are some who would say they have reached their potential because their bodies only hold up so long. There would be others who say their potential isn't reached because if they hadn't been hurt or otherwise debilitated they could have gone higher. I suppose I would be in the first group, since I think durability is part of the sport. I do think there is a difference between catastrophic injuries, such as having Konishiki fall on your leg and break it, and the accumulation of little chronic injuries, like are affecting the Mongolian yokozuna now.

[hamcornheinz 839]

Everyone and their mothers thought that Terunofuji would become yokozuna in 2016. 

[orandashoho 720]

  On 04/02/2017 at 15:40, hamcornheinz said:

Everyone and their mothers thought that Terunofuji would become yokozuna in 2016. 

Yeah well, they hadn't counted on him getting debilitatingly injured just after his Ozeki promotion.He is now an apologetic shadow of his former self.

Edited February 4, 2017 by orandashoho

[hamcornheinz 839]

  On 04/02/2017 at 15:43, orandashoho said:

Yeah well, they hadn't counted on him getting debilitatedly injured just after his Ozeki promotion.He is now an apologetic shadow of his former self.

Yeah. *sigh*

[Churaumi 745]

He looks so uncomfortable on the dohyo now, it's hard to watch sometimes.

[just_some_guy 284]

I was hoping after saving himself from losing his Ozeki rank two basho ago he'd take one (or two, or three..) off to heal a bit. Won't be surprised if we're down to one Ozeki after this next basho.

[Benihana 1,937]

Don't worry, Mitakeumi and Shodai are ready to fill the empty slots.

[Bumpkin 438]

  On 06/02/2017 at 15:24, Benihana said:

Don't worry, Mitakeumi and Shodai are ready to fill the empty slots.

So is Takayasu and, maybe, Tamawashi.

[Dapeng 236]

Talking about injury,  some got injured purely because of bad luck,  but many simply because they fought too hard (or had to). For example there is a rikishi who  naturally belongs to mid maegashira and can survive very long at that level. If he always fights hard at his limit he may move up to sanyaku, but at a heavy cost of greatly increased risk of being injured and being cut short of their careers.