Terunofuji's Turmoil

[Asojima 2,874]

Once again, Terunofuji came out of the Haru basho with a KK and an injury.  Once again, he has three options:

1.  Return injured in Natsu and struggle, probably unsuccessfully, to avoid kadoban.
2.  Skip Natsu and return as a partially healed, kadoban Ozeki needing 8 wins to continue life as a successful, but injury-prone  Ozeki.
3.  Skip Natsu and Nagoya and return in Aki as a fully healed Sekiwake needing 10 wins to resume life as a Yokozuna contender.

Logic suggests option 3.  Sumo culture suggests option 2.  History suggests he will take option one, and 2017 will be a repeat of 2016.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Asojima

[robnplunder 976]

What is the injury?  I.e, how severe is it?

[Churaumi 745]

That's too bad, he looked better last basho than he had in a long time. Did the injury factor in his losses to Kisenosato?

[inhashi 2,363]

2 hours ago, robnplunder said:

What is the injury?  I.e, how severe is it?

It was re-injury to the knee from a previous injury although no specifics reported.  He already had a right knee injury from Aki 2015.  In 2016 he underwent surgery on his left knee followed by a spiral of losses with losing records.  What really burns my heart about his current state is that he never made excuses and was always determined and driven to conquer what was before him.  IMO, He was just as brave as Kisenosato's return on day 14 with his pectoral injury, but with Teru refusing kyujo, results weren't in his favor.  The last match with Kotoshogiku and the violent booing from spectators followed by the media uproar of it could have finally broken him mentally.  Even during most of 2016 we saw his hesitation and some fear on the dohyo. Surely he is still young/naive experience wise in comparison to the yokozuna and sanyaku contenders.  I can't help but think how he is dealing with all of this mentally if not emotionally.

[Asojima 2,874]

41 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

That's too bad, he looked better last basho than he had in a long time. Did the injury factor in his losses to Kisenosato?

He reinjured the knee in his match with Kakuryu.  Ozekis and Yokozunas traditionally do not go kyujo during the last three days if they can possibly crawl onto the dohyo.  The injury was probably a deciding factor in his henka against Kotoshogiku on day 14, and in his poor showing in the two matches against Kisenosato on senshuraku.

 

[Churaumi 745]

Well, that's no fun. Hopefully he heals up and doesn't go back on his kadoban-8-7-kadoban cycle.

[robnplunder 976]

3 hours ago, Asojima said:

The injury was probably a deciding factor in his henka against Kotoshogiku on day 14, and in his poor showing in the two matches against Kisenosato on senshuraku.

 

I don't know about that.   Teru didn't look injured compare to many other rikishi who were noticeably hobbling, wincing, etc..  The "probability" seems like a convenient excuse after the fact.  As for the future basho, he must manage his injury with discipline.  It's hard to do than say, I know.  But at his professional level, it's a must.

Edited April 10, 2017 by robnplunder

[Akinomaki 40,765]

45 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Teru didn't look injured compare to many other rikishi who were noticeably hobbling, wincing, etc..  The "probability" seems like a convenient excuse after the fact.

He wasn't at the hospital for nothing on day 14

On 1.4.2017 at 14:39, Akinomaki said:

Terunofuji is (jungyo) kyujo now for a reason: the knee got worse on day 12 and was really bad after the day 13 Kakuryu bout, he went to a hospital after day 14 morning keiko. His sumo didn't suddenly deteriorate with the henka, the henka came because he already was in bad shape.

Terunofuji has surely found a way by now how to move effectively with the damaged knee - but it doesn't avoid aggravating it day after day.

The excuse after the fact in this case lies in how much of the real situation he chooses to reveal later.

[robnplunder 976]

It seems to me about 30 - 40% of the rikishi are in basho with injury, many more severe than what Terunofuji let on (if he did, I didn't notice).    Some of them look like they should have stayed in  hospital.   Kise for sure could have went kyujo after injuring his shoulder.  In fact, I assumed it and was shocked to see him back.   At best, IMO, a deeply injured Kise beat less injured Terunofuji twice.    It is good that Teruno's camp is not making explicit excuses.   It will only make him look smaller at this point.    What Teruno's camp should be concerned is Teruno's management of his injuries.   His Ozekiship has been alternating between Kadoban and Kachikosh.   In that span, he has the worst record among all Yokozuna & Ozeki.   If he manages his injury better, he will have longer career.   If he continues this way, he will go the way of Kotoshogiku real soon.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

When the old Terunofuji was apparently back with two working legs and looking like a future yokozuna again, no one was happier than me. Then we had henka-gate immediately followed by 2 really lacklustre performances against Kisenosato. It was such a change that it even crossed my mind he'd been told to lose on senshuraku...

A couple of days later I found out that he'd injured himself again in his bout with Kakuryu, and things made more sense.

On the very odd occasion when he's fit Terunofuji can probably get away with things like that impossible morozashi-beating abisetaoshi on Endo once a basho, but trying to follow it up with a similarly impossible move on Kakuryu was too much for his pins to take.

I think he's too strong for his own body - his shin is way too big for his tai to handle! That means he's got to learn to give up the occasional bout simply to avoid injury and thereby remain more consistently competitive. That worries me. As Robnplunder says, his injury-management is a cause for major concern.

It's not impossible for Terunofuji to get through it, though. I remember Chiyonofuji having to totally change his style when his shoulder kept dislocating, and he became a far better rikishi for it. Konishiki, too, had big problems with his knees in the late 80s, struggled, then got past it to reach new heights with his (should have had a) tsuna run in 1992.

[PawnSums 59]

Sorry if this is off topic, but if we had every kyujo rikishi go kyujo, We'd only have 10 days a basho!

[Churaumi 745]

13 hours ago, PawnSums said:

Sorry if this is off topic, but if we had every kyujo rikishi go kyujo, We'd only have 10 days a basho!

I have to defer to my football coach back when I played in school. He told us to play "hurt," but never play "injured." "Hurt" meant to play through the pain of the game, things like big hits, sore muscles, minor twisted ankles, etc. "Injured" meant a real injury, sprains, broken bones, severely twisted ankles, etc. Too many rikishi play injured, when they should sit down, I would personally like the NSK to reinstate the "no penalty for sitting out a tournament" rule for ozeki and below at least. Yokozuna are different in my opinion, being an honorific title. They would be the ones most likely to abuse it, and if their bodies can't keep up it would be time to retire anyway.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

I know it's over half a century ago now, but it shows that continuing with a serious injury is not just a sumo thing, nor indeed particularly Japanese. Let me draw your attention to Manchester United goalie Bert Trautmann. This is what Wikipedia has to say about him:

"Named FWA Footballer of the Year for 1956, Trautmann entered football folklore with his performance in the 1956 FA (Football Association) Cup Final. With 17 minutes of the match remaining, Trautmann suffered a serious injury while diving at the feet of Birmingham City's Peter Murphy. Despite his injury, he continued to play, making crucial saves to preserve his team's 3–1 lead. His neck was noticeably crooked as he collected his winner's medal; three days later an X-ray revealed it to be broken."

If this were a game of top trumps, that's a clear winner!

[Churaumi 745]

I remember about two years ago seeing a jonidan or sandanme rikishi take a nasty spill off the dohyo and wait through the monoii with one shoulder a good three or four inches below the other. Fortunately for him it wasn't a torinaoshi call. 

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

 

On 10.4.2017 at 02:39, Asojima said:

[...] Ozekis and Yokozunas traditionally do not go kyujo during the last three days if they can possibly crawl onto the dohyo.  [...]

 

Generally true. Still it was fun to see Kotooshu go out on day 15 in May 2012. He was an Ozeki at 8-6, so what? A nice FU! not aimed at anyone in particular.

 

On 11.4.2017 at 16:03, Churaumi said:

[...] I would personally like the NSK to reinstate the "no penalty for sitting out a tournament" rule for ozeki and below at least. Yokozuna are different in my opinion, being an honorific title. They would be the ones most likely to abuse it, and if their bodies can't keep up it would be time to retire anyway.

You do realize that Yokozuna can sit out tournaments pretty much like they want, don't you?

[Churaumi 745]

They can, to a point. If they go kyujo too much, or start giving out kinboshi too often, the YDC starts chattering. They just did it this year to Harumafuji, although more to motivate him than as a serious threat to his career. 

Yokozuna are supposed to be dominant, and you have to compete to dominate.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

6 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

You do realize that Yokozuna can sit out tournaments pretty much like they want, don't you?

Not really. True, they don't get demoted for putting in 0-0-15s, but they're not allowed to abuse it. One or two kyujo honbasho in a row is by far the most common scenario. Three and you'll generally start to hear 'comments'.

I wasn't watching sumo at the time, so I've no idea how Takanohana got away with seven on the trot in 2001-2, but I don't think that can be used as a yardstick.

[Cuboctahedron 2]

On 11.4.2017 at 17:58, RabidJohn said:

I know it's over half a century ago now, but it shows that continuing with a serious injury is not just a sumo thing, nor indeed particularly Japanese. Let me draw your attention to Manchester United goalie Bert Trautmann. This is what Wikipedia has to say about him:

"Named FWA Footballer of the Year for 1956, Trautmann entered football folklore with his performance in the 1956 FA (Football Association) Cup Final. With 17 minutes of the match remaining, Trautmann suffered a serious injury while diving at the feet of Birmingham City's Peter Murphy. Despite his injury, he continued to play, making crucial saves to preserve his team's 3–1 lead. His neck was noticeably crooked as he collected his winner's medal; three days later an X-ray revealed it to be broken."

If this were a game of top trumps, that's a clear winner!

The great Bert Trautmann played for Manchester City, not for United. Outside of Manchester this distinction may seem irrelevant, but there I guess it is a matter of grave importance.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

5 minutes ago, Cuboctahedron said:

The great Bert Trautmann played for Manchester City, not for United. Outside of Manchester this distinction may seem irrelevant, but there I guess it is a matter of grave importance.

Oo, me and my wayward fingers!

I don't care for footie myself, but you're right: the City vs United thing is quite major!

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

On 20.4.2017 at 19:58, RabidJohn said:

Not really. True, they don't get demoted for putting in 0-0-15s, but they're not allowed to abuse it. One or two kyujo honbasho in a row is by far the most common scenario. Three and you'll generally start to hear 'comments'.

I wasn't watching sumo at the time, so I've no idea how Takanohana got away with seven on the trot in 2001-2, but I don't think that can be used as a yardstick.

His post implied that a rule change would be abused by Yokozuna, which made me point out that this rule doesn't exist for them. Sure, turning up only every fourth basho might raise an eyebrow or two. But as far as I can see, at least the first big break for every Yokozuna in question has always been OKish. That's their rule advantage. They let them heal out the first big injury at least, without much complaints.

[Benevolance 2,511]

It took me 3 reads to get 'okayish' and not O'Kish, and "break" as "time off" and not "debut"  and I was really confused about whether this was a yokozuna soccer thing. But on subsequent review, I agree with everything YBF typed. 

[Benihana 1,937]

17 hours ago, Benevolance said:

It took me 3 reads to get 'okayish' and not O'Kish, and "break" as "time off" and not "debut"  and I was really confused about whether this was a yokozuna soccer thing. But on subsequent review, I agree with everything YBF typed. 

That OKish got me, too. What is soccer? Now i'm confused.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

I don't disagree with anything YBF posted last, but just to add to the confusion, I'm still waiting for my big break!

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Yo! Me forinner. Engelish OKish but shy bird.

 

[That "break" has a major meaning of "debut" makes my nerves debut.]

Edited April 22, 2017 by yorikiried by fate

[RabidJohn 1,855]

11 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Yo! Me forinner. Engelish OKish but shy bird.

[That "break" has a major meaning of "debut" makes my nerves debut.]

It doesn't. Take the Beatles, for example; some would argue that their debut was as the Quarrymen at a garden fête in the 1958, and they performed for a couple years as the Silver Beatles and then the Beatles in Liverpool and Hamburg, so they were well past their debut when their big break came, and that was when they took Brian Epstein as manager and he got them a deal with Parlophone.

"shy bird"?