Adil 232 Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) I was interested in learning how to read the shikona kanji of the current/recent makuuchi rikishi. I can neither speak nor read Japanese, but I was able to learn some of the more commonly used kanji which are used in many shikona. I am sharing my notes below. I hope they will be of some use for the good folks here. I will approach this topic in a certain way. I will choose an important kanji and list some shikona that use that kanji. In the beginning, I have tried my best not to talk about/include/focus on confusing shikona that have many different readings or readings that are written with different shikona. However, after we move on from the easy shikona/kanji, we will talk a little bit about those difficult ones as there are loads of shikona which use them. Speaking of which, just one little pointer as you will no doubt notice it soon enough. Both の and ノ are read as ‘no’. By the way, when I say ‘important’ kanji, please note that I am not using any objective criteria for importance. It is purely subjective based on the rikishi I know well or just shikona I happen to like (but are fairly common, nonetheless). Have fun! 1) 千代 = chiyo Chiyo - sho - ma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 Chiyo - tai - ryu 千代 - 大 - 龍 Chiyo - otori 千代 - 鳳 Chiyo - no - umi 千代 - の - 海 Chiyo - no - fuji 千代 - の - 富士 2) 富士 = fuji Haruma - fuji 日馬 - 富士 Teru - no - fuji 照 - ノ - 富士 Takara - fuji 宝 - 富士 Homare - fuji 誉 - 富士 3) 佐 - 田 - の = sa - da - no Sa - da - no - fuji 佐 - 田 - の - 富士 Sa - da - no - hikari 佐 - 田 - ノ - 輝 Sa - da - no - umi 佐 - 田 - の - 海 4) 海 = umi Oki - no - umi 隠岐 - の - 海 Mi - take - umi 御 - 嶽 - 海 Hide - no - umi 英 - 乃 - 海 5) 竜 / 龍 = ryu OK, I know I said I wasn’t going to focus on the tricky ones in the beginning, but there’s no getting around this one. If I list all the ryus and leave out Kakuryu, it won’t feel good. Most of the ryus that I have seen use the older variant (龍), but some do use the other one (竜), most noticeably, Yokozuna Kakuryu. Kaku - ryu 鶴 - 竜 Ryu - ko 竜 - 虎 Now, the guys who use the older variant of the dragon kanji. Myou - gi - ryu 妙 - 義 - 龍 Toku - shou - ryu 徳 - 勝 - 龍 Jou - ko -ryu 常 - 幸 - 龍 Azuma - ryu 東 - 龍 6) 東 = azuma Fuji - azuma 富士 - 東 De - wa - azuma 出 - 羽 - 東 Azuma - sato 東 - 里 7) 里 = sato Ki - se - no - sato 稀 - 勢 - の - 里 Sato - yama 里 - 山 8) 風 = kaze Yoshi - kaze 嘉 - 風 Take - kaze 豪 - 風 Ama - kaze 天 - 風 9) 鵬 = ho Haku - ho 白 - 鵬 Kyoku - ten - ho 旭 - 天 - 鵬 10) 旭 = kyoku Kyoku - shu - ho 旭 - 秀 - 鵬 Kyoku - tai - sei 旭 - 大 - 星 11) 大 = tai / dai Chiyo - tai - ryu 千代 - 大 - 龍 Dai - ei - sho 大 - 栄 - 翔 12) 琴 = koto Koto - sho - giku 琴 - 奨 - 菊 Koto - yu - ki 琴 - 勇 - 輝 13) 鷲 = washi Ara - washi 荒 - 鷲 Tama - washi 玉 - 鷲 14) 玉 = tama Tama - kon - gou 玉 - 金 - 剛 Tama - ki 玉 - 木 Tama - asu - ka 玉 - 飛 - 鳥 15) 豊 = toyo / yutaka Toyo - no - shima 豊 - ノ - 島 Toyo - hibiki 豊 - 響 Yutaka - yama 豊 - 山 16) 山 = yama / zan First, the guys with the ‘yama’ reading: Aoi - yama 碧 - 山 Asa - no - yama 朝 - 乃 - 山 Sato - yama 里 - 山 Yama - guchi 山 - 口 Now, the guys with the ‘zan’ reading: Sho - hou - zan 松 - 鳳 - 山 (鳳 is read ‘otori’ in Chiyo-otori’s shikona) Tochi - o - zan 栃 - 煌 - 山 17) 栃 = tochi Tochi - no - shin 栃 - ノ - 心 Tochi - maru 栃 - 丸 18) 丸 = maru Chiyo - maru 千代 丸 Ga - ga - maru 臥 - 牙 - 丸 Kame - no - maru 亀 - の - 丸 19) 高 / 貴 = taka Taka - yasu 高 - 安 Taka - sago (stable) 高 - 砂 Taka - no - hana 貴 - 乃 - 花 Taka - gen - ji 貴 - 源 - 治 Taka - kei - sho 貴 - 景 - 勝 Taka - no - iwa 貴 - ノ - 岩 Extras: In Chiyotaikai’s shikona, the first two kanji are the same as Chiyotairyu. However, the ‘kai’ is written as 海, which in the other shikona we saw earlier is read as ‘umi’. Chiyo - tai - ryu 千代 - 大 - 龍 Chiyo - tai - kai 千代 - 大 - 海 Apparently, 海 is also read as ‘kai’, as seen in another shikona: Kai - ryu 海 - 龍 Kaio’s shikona, however, doesn’t have 海. It uses another kanji, the same one that is in Kaisei’s shikona as well: Kai - sei 魁 - 聖 Kai - o 魁 - 皇 Chiyo - o 千代 - 皇 (Just included this guy because the last kanji is the same as Kaio’s) The most difficult one for me, so far, has been 輝 Kagayaki 輝 Koto - yu - ki 琴 - 勇 - 輝 Teru - no - sato 輝 の 里 Fuji - no - teru 富士 の 輝 However, Terunofuji’s shikona uses another kanji for ‘teru’: Teru - no - fuji 照 - ノ - 富士 ....................................................................... The ‘sho’ problem ‘Sho’ is written as 翔 in some shikona, such as Dai - ei - sho 大 - 栄 - 翔 Chiyo - sho - ma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 However, I have seen many other kanji for ‘sho’ in other shikona: A) 勝 as in Taka - kei - sho 貴 - 景 - 勝 Toku - sho - ryu 徳 - 勝 - 龍 Masu -no - sho 舛 - の - 勝 Sho - sei 勝 - 誠 B) 松 as in Sho - ho - zan 松鳳山 Asa - hi - sho 旭日松 C) 青 as in Asa - sho - ryu 朝 - 青 - 龍 D) 正 as in Sho - dai 正 - 代 E) 咲 as in O - nou - sho 阿 - 武 - 咲 (Onousho) As I said, I can neither speak nor read Japanese, so I hope the folks who can will provide their input in case there are problems with my notes. Edited June 3, 2017 by Adil 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted June 2, 2017 It may help if you know the history of the Kanji character set. They were originally Chinese, and they started out as pictures of objects or concepts. The Chinese linked the name they used for the object to the picture. The Japanese adopted a subset of the Chinese characters for use with their language. They only accepted characters for very general concepts, but they already had spoken words for a variety of objects within the concept. Think of how many spoken words you could use that are associated with a body of water, a mountain, a person, a field, a dog, etc. The Japanese linked all of the existing specific spoken words to the single character for the concept. To top it off, they also often added the Chinese word for the character to their language. This is why there are many spoken words/sounds that are associated with each Kanji character. If you give a Japanese an arbitrary combination of Kanji characters, he will have no idea how to pronounce them. The shikona are basically an arbitrary combination of Kanji characters. The Japanese have a set of phonetic symbols (hiragana) for each sound in their language. Printed names are often followed by hiragana in parentheses to let the reader know how to pronounce them. This is why there is often some speculation on the forum on how a new shikona will be pronounced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 6,045 Posted June 2, 2017 Note that 旭 = kyoku can be alternatively read as asahi as in Asahisho, and 乃 also belongs to the の ノ family. (coming from a guy with the same level of education, i.e. nil) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Adil said: 11) 大 = tai / dai Chiyo - tai - ryu 千代 - 大 - 龍 Dai - ei - sho 大 - 栄 - 翔 This character can also be read as O, with the same meaning of "big" or "great". (It's really a long vowel, so "oo" or "ō" is more correct depending on your preferred method for showing length.) It can only be read this way as a prefix, so it never takes that value in the middle of a word. Oo-suna-arashi 大 - 砂 - 嵐 Oo-iwa-to 大 - 岩 - 戸 Oo-ro-ra 大 - 露 - 羅 Edited June 2, 2017 by Kuroyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,647 Posted June 2, 2017 33 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said: Note that 旭 = kyoku can be alternatively read as asahi as in Asahisho, and 乃 also belongs to the の ノ family. (coming from a guy with the same level of education, i.e. nil) Asahisho's a special case among the Asahi* rikishi though, as it's the entire 旭日 combination that is read "asahi" here. Otherwise he'd be Asahihisho. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhyen 1,846 Posted June 2, 2017 Is that why his laugh is "hi hi"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orandashoho 720 Posted June 2, 2017 @Adil, thanks for your post. This is more or less exactly what I've been doing last basho, putting the Japanese torikumi next to the English torikumi and trying to make sense of the kanji. [off-topic musings from here on...] I don't speak Japanese beyond very simple phrases and reading is a slow decyphering task, but I do want to learn. I set myself the seemingly impossible task of learning some Japanese before my next visit to Japan -- a nice challenge, because I have no memory for learning by rote. Word lists are unconnected factoids without links to context, the go in one ear and out the other. Only after they can be anchored to some substrate do they make sense and can their fluidity be traced... without that substrate, words are random sounds, a convention like a group of people agreeing among themselves that "cat" can mean a building. Classroom learning doesn't work very well because it relies heavily on a learning by rote faculty I simply don't have. For instance, I did pretty badly in school learning English and French, couldn't remember a thing, until some years later it had "clicked" and within a few months I was fluent. My English teacher was furious with me, thought I had been messing with her before! Trying to read Japanese is hopeless for now. Using a textbook in romaji is not a good idea but without the romaji or hiragana, texts are unintelligible. If the kanji don't have the pronounciation written over them, I can't look them up, and another problem is that inJapanesewordsarenotseparatedbyspacesinasentence. TryreadingasentencewithoutspacesbetweenthewordsandyouknowwhatImean. Breaking down a written text into its parts there are a few clues like the use of hiragana for declensions, adjectives and the like, but the kanji are an almost impassable hurdle. So I've been concentrating more on the patterns of thinking without going into the detail of meaning, to get a "feel" of the language first, understand its flow and modes, build an understanding that can serve as substrate for further learning, getting it to "click"... but I've never had to do that using a script that is not connected to pronounciation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orandashoho 720 Posted June 2, 2017 By the way, I just love the way that 嵐 is 風 wearing a crown. The King of all winds! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adil 232 Posted June 2, 2017 3 hours ago, orandashoho said: I don't speak Japanese beyond very simple phrases and reading is a slow decyphering task, but I do want to learn. I set myself the seemingly impossible task of learning some Japanese before my next visit to Japan .... Same here. I, too, have set myself the task of learning Japanese before I visit Japan. I can't go for at least the next two years, so time is on my side. Plus, I have always deluded myself that I am very good at learning languages but I just never had the time or an important enough reason to invest my time and energy on something that I will never use/need. It's different now, though. I have the time and the purpose: travelling to and exploring Japan. I am working on this mission with all my energy. The biggest motivation for me, believe it or not, is just to prove to myself that my belief about my language learning abilities is true. That and of course, my lifelong love for all things Japan. I have been thinking about creating a thread about my Japanese language learning journey. I might do it. I started two months ago and I can already read children's stories that are written with limited vocabulary. More on this when/if I start the other thread. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,276 Posted June 2, 2017 To be frank, some shikona have extremely rare readings/kanji that even Japanese will struggle to read if they are not already familiar with that rikishi. So don't worry too much if it's confusing and just have fun with it :) Also I'm pretty ambivalent about this usually but when calling out single kanji reading i think it's very important to note long vowels - it will save you troubles. Learn hiragana (useful!) and on the rikishi page in the db switch to Japanese and the reading will be written in hiragana next to the kanji. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
torquato 1,075 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, orandashoho said: By the way, I just love the way that 嵐 is 風 wearing a crown. The King of all winds! This 'crown' is actually a small a small 山 (yama) mountain. Storm 嵐 (arashi) is a mountain of a wind 風 (kaze). King as a kanji would be 王 (ō). Edited June 3, 2017 by torquato 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
torquato 1,075 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, Adil said: 6) 東 = azuma 9) 鵬 = ho 16) 山 = yama / zan Sato - yama 里 - 山 Yama - guchi 山 - 口 18) 丸 = maru 19) 高 / 貴 = taka The ‘sho’ problem @6 azuma An uncommon reading mainly used in names. @9 鵬 = hō A mythological bird like 鳳 ōtori, also used in shikona names. A phoenix as it were. 里山 and 山口 are not proper shikona. These are real family names like 遠藤 (Endō). 18) 丸 = maru The usual suffix for ship names. ;) 19) 高 / 貴 = taka Different meaning. The ‘sho’ problem A very (!) frequent reading of kanji. Among the ca. 1000 kanji taught in primary school 40 of them have a reading of shō or sho. PS: Who the f*** inventted this f*** useless forum editor!? §$%&$§" Edited June 3, 2017 by torquato 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Adil said: The ‘sho’ problem ‘Sho’ is written as 翔 in some shikona, such as Dai - ei - sho 大 - 栄 - 翔 Chiyo - sho - uma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 However, I have seen many other kanji for ‘sho’ in other shikona: A) 勝 as in Taka - kei - sho 貴 - 景 - 勝 Toku - sho - ryu 徳 - 勝 - 龍 Masu -no - sho 舛 - の - 勝 Sho - sei 勝 - 誠 B) 松 as in Sho - ho - zan 松鳳山 Asa - hi - sho 旭日松 C) 青 as in Asa - sho - ryu 朝 - 青 - 龍 D) 正 as in Sho - dai 正 - 代 E) 咲 as in O - nou - sho 阿 - 武 - 咲 (Onousho) [recte Ounoshou] As I said, I can neither speak nor read Japanese, so I hope the folks who can will provide their input in case there are problems with my notes. These are homophones, different words that sound the same but mean different things, like "their" and "there" in English. As @torquato said, there are a bunch of characters with this reading, and not only the 40 taught in primary school. Searching for kanji with that reading in the WWWJDIC finds 512 of them, if you include the less common ones. For those you listed: 翔 "shou" -- Fly, soar. You actually divided up the morae in "Chiyoshouma" incorrectly. The last character 馬 is read "ma" and means horse. You see the same kanji in Harumafuji -- and in Ama; he wanted to preserve that kanji when he took his new shikona. The "U" lengthens the preceding vowel. (Edit: To write "many horses" you can use the unusual kanji 驫 which is just a collection of "ma" kanji 馬 stacked together. Coincidentally, it's also pronounced "shou".) 勝 "shou" -- Win, victory, prevail. This character can also be read "kachi" as in "kachikoshi", among others. 青 "shou" -- Blue. More commonly read as "ao". 正 "shou" -- 5. Or 10^40. Or "righteous". Shoudai uses his real name so it doesn't necessarily mean anything in context, but it could plausibly be read "righteous generation". 咲 "shou" -- Blossom. Incidentally, the WWWJDIC is a fantastic resource if, like me, you have no real Japanese to speak of but sometimes like to pretend otherwise. Edited June 3, 2017 by Kuroyama 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
torquato 1,075 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Kuroyama said: 勝 "shou" -- Win, victory, prevail. This character can also be read "kachi" as in "kachikoshi", among others. Probably the most important shō in sumo. It's also the shō in yusho and zensho. Learning kanji is a long, long hard work… but it can make so much fun.^^ PS: But don't confuse this 勝 (shō) with this 賞 (shō) that we know from 三賞 sanshō. Edited June 3, 2017 by torquato 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asameshimae 220 Posted June 3, 2017 There are countless kanji that are read Shō in Japanese, this really frustrated me at first. Kō as well. It does all start to click after a while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orandashoho 720 Posted June 3, 2017 9 hours ago, torquato said: On 02/06/2017 at 10:38, orandashoho said: By the way, I just love the way that 嵐 is 風 wearing a crown. The King of all winds! This 'crown' is actually a small a small 山 (yama) mountain. Storm 嵐 (arashi) is a mountain of a wind 風 (kaze). King as a kanji would be 王 (ō). Edited 9 hours ago by torquato At first, not knowing any kanji, it is not the meaning but the appearance of the sign that stuck into my mind. As it happens, the idea behind it (something big and powerful to aggrandize the original) isn't all that different. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adil 232 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) On 6/3/2017 at 04:23, Kuroyama said: You actually divided up the morae in "Chiyoshouma" incorrectly. The last character 馬 is read "ma" and means horse. Is this just the case in shikona kanji? Although 馬 can be read 'ma', but in everyday Japanese, the word for horse is 馬 = 'uma'. Thanks! I've changed it now. Edited June 4, 2017 by Adil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RabidJohn 1,854 Posted June 3, 2017 On 02/06/2017 at 08:31, Kuroyama said: This character can also be read as O, with the same meaning of "big" or "great". (It's really a long vowel, so "oo" or "ō" is more correct depending on your preferred method for showing length.) It can only be read this way as a prefix, so it never takes that value in the middle of a word. I was aware that tai = dai = ō all mean great, but are there styles/fashions/fads in the way this kanji is pronounced? I ask because your post stirred up an old memory of Chiyonofuji being referred to as 'ōyokozuna', whereas everyone seems to say dai-yokozuna now. Or was that the old C4 production team getting the pronunciation wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,276 Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, RabidJohn said: I was aware that tai = dai = ō all mean great, but are there styles/fashions/fads in the way this kanji is pronounced? I ask because your post stirred up an old memory of Chiyonofuji being referred to as 'ōyokozuna', whereas everyone seems to say dai-yokozuna now. Or was that the old C4 production team getting the pronunciation wrong? It is a good question because a lot of Japanese ask the same question on the internet it seems. For a 'technically' correct explanation, the OO reading of 大 is the historic Japanese reading and DAI is the historic Chinese reading. So if you use 大 in a Japanese name, Shikona, or some description of food that is traditionally Japanese it is going to be OO. So you get Oosuna'arashi for example. Some of the websites said that they said ooyokozuna because yokozuna is a Japanese word so any prefix should transform to the Japanese reading but I think this is wrong. Basically, it seems to be only used for Chiyonofuji and is a play on words and meaning and his stature. When 大 is read as DAI its means Great/Best some of the time and Large/Huge some of the time. When read as OO it means physically large/big a large portion of the time (like 大きい OOKII). So calling Chiyonofuji the Ooyokozuna is funny because he is not very big compared to other rikishi actually. In fact, I read that some announcer called him 小さな大横綱 read as chisai-na Ooyokozuna which kind of means The (physically) Little-Big Yokozuna. So I think it was unique for Chiyonofuji as kind of an endearing joke. You can even google search 小さな大横綱 and he will come up. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Adil said: Is this just the case in shikona kanji? Although 馬 can be read 'ma', but in everyday Japanese, the word for horse is 馬 = 'uma'. 'ma' is the Chinese pronunciation for the character 馬, and 'da' (dai) for the character 大. 山 is 'shan' (zan). 海 is 'hai' (kai). Edited June 3, 2017 by Asojima 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALAKTORN 346 Posted June 3, 2017 Chiyo - sho - uma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 ^That really took me by surprise… it ends with uma? I always thought it was Chiyoshōma, but it’s Chiyoshōuma? Don’t think I’ve ever heard the uma pronounced… Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said: Chiyo - sho - uma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 ^That really took me by surprise… it ends with uma? I always thought it was Chiyoshōma, but it’s Chiyoshōuma? Don’t think I’ve ever heard the uma pronounced… It is, in fact, Chiyo-sho(u)-ma. The 'ma' is the Chinese 'ma'. Edited June 3, 2017 by Asojima 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adil 232 Posted June 3, 2017 42 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said: Chiyo - sho - uma 千代 - 翔 - 馬 ^That really took me by surprise… it ends with uma? I always thought it was Chiyoshōma, but it’s Chiyoshōuma? Don’t think I’ve ever heard the uma pronounced… As Kuroyama and Asojima have pointed out, that was a mistake from me. I have corrected it now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) This is an excellent reference for looking up Kanji for pronunciation and meaning. I have an earlier 1974 edition that I have beat to hell. This looks like an updated version of the old standard. I can't vouch for it, but I have ordered one. These books only list the characters that are in common use. Some of the more esoteric characters used in some shikona are missing. Usually, only the 2 most common pronunciations for the character are given. Edited June 3, 2017 by Asojima Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Washuyama 641 Posted June 4, 2017 I've been doing this (identifying some shikona w/o ability to read Japanese) for over 40 years. In fact, when I was living in Japan I used to tell people I don't speak or read Japanese but am fluent in Ozumo. When looking through a Japanese UTube channel, I can still pick out the shikona of the rikishi of my youth, which helps me identify some of the rikishi of today. (ex. Takamiyama --> Takamisakari). Some of the more complicated kanji still throw me for a loop, though. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
