Hakuho misconduct (split from Basho Talk Kyushu 2017)

[Kintamayama 45,527]

1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

I think there is no such thing as a magic innate immunity that prevents you from totally screwing up at a time when you're irrationally angry. Hakuhou's faults are his own, and I don't think his actions should be used to draw conclusions about foreign-born rikishi.

(Especially since we had literally the exact same matta confusion happen in Aki with another foreign-born yokozuna, and he took it a lot better.)

I was under the impression that you were saying you don't like it when people say the Mongolians don't understand Japan. I was trying to explain that they don't understand Japan.

[dada78641 884]

Yes, I don't like it when people say it, because it's nonsense.

edit: but I don't think a discussion on this will get anywhere. I've said what I wanted to say. I'll just leave it at that.

Edited November 23, 2017 by dada78641

[Kintamayama 45,527]

51 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

I was carefully listening at Hakuho's dohyo-iri and didn't hear any booing or unusual remarks - and the report confirms that http://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/11/23/0010757502.shtml

No anti-foreign bias sentiments? No xenophobia? How is that even possible? Could it be that Japanese fans actually might like Hakuhou? I am shocked.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

1 minute ago, dada78641 said:

Yes, I don't like it when people say it, because it's nonsense.

And I think Hakuhou's actions yesterday stem exactly from that. He knows of the traditions, but he doesn't understand them and how rooted they really are,

[Akinomaki 40,777]

Hakuho at least managed to get the focus of this basho back to the action (on) at the dohyo

Edited November 23, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Kintamayama 45,527]

Hakuhou apologizes. "I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo. I just wanted the shinpan to see the replay. After I left the hanamichi I myself accepted  it was my mistake, so it really is inexcusable.."

[Fukurou 534]

4 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

"I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo.

Anyone really believe Hakuho did what he did because of this?

[orandashoho 720]

7 minutes ago, Fukurou said:

11 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

"I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo.

Anyone really believe Hakuho did what he did because of this?

I can't see anything wrong with Yoshikaze's kind of sumo in that match. If there was anything wrong with the kind of sumo, it was the kind of sumo that Hakuho displayed. Perhaps he was having an out-of-body experience looking at his own sumo from the perspective of the gyoji and the shimpan.

[Kishinoyama 596]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

No anti-foreign bias sentiments? No xenophobia? How is that even possible?

Don't worry their is plenty of that here. 

[ALAKTORN 346]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Hakuhou apologizes. "I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo. I just wanted the shinpan to see the replay. After I left the hanamichi I myself accepted  it was my mistake, so it really is inexcusable.."

That’s good.

[dada78641 884]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"After I left the hanamichi I myself accepted  it was my mistake, so it really is inexcusable.."

I knew it: right after he saw the replay. He realized it right then and there.

"I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo"
Typical. Come up with a more convenient excuse so that everybody can pretend to believe it, allowing us all to commit this nasty episode to the past...

[yade 14]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

He knows of the traditions, but he doesn't understand them and how rooted they really are,

I think hakuho very well understands the tradition but he thinks because of his achievements he has reached an upper level where he gets away with this kind of actions. Of course in this case he was wrong (on the other hand I dont believe this happend on purpose but on a gut level within the bout).
I also think because he really understands the tradition he knows how to deal with it best. After winning this basho he will apologize during his NHK interview for this interlude with a tear in his eye. And if "I" understand the tradition correctly his apology will be accepted with a long applause. And then he will be the nice guy again - which will give him a boost at the harumafuji story. (and my level of thinking has reached its end for today ;)

 

[Haidouzo 78]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

And I think Hakuhou's actions yesterday stem exactly from that. He knows of the traditions, but he doesn't understand them and how rooted they really are,

I think I can see both sides of this, and I think the use of "understand" is where things can get muddled.

I would agree that Hakuho, not being raised in Japan, is most likely less deeply conditioned to act "Japanese" than somebody born and raised in Japan.  I think there's a difference between conditioning and understanding.  To this extent, I can see how it can be somewhat insulting to say that someone does not understand the culture they've been living in for a very long time simply because they may rarely revert to more innate (foreign) behaviors in heated moments.

I understand how to slam dunk a basketball, but no way in hell can I pull it off.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Hakuhou apologizes. "I did what I did because I don't think the fans want to see that kind of sumo. I just wanted the shinpan to see the replay. After I left the hanamichi I myself accepted  it was my mistake, so it really is inexcusable.."

Apology accepted* for my part, if by "that kind of sumo" he means the kind where yokozuna prematurely stop trying because they mistakenly believe a matta has taken place. I was amazed to see Harumafuji do almost exactly the same thing last time, and I was gobsmacked when Hakuho did it. Something I'd never seen before has happened twice in two basho!

It wouldn't surprise me to discover Hakuho has been mercilessly ribbing Harumafuji about his Wacky Aki f*ck-up with Kotoshogiku (which HRF subquently took out on Takanoiwa!), only to suddenly find himself having just made the same stupid mistake with Yoshikaze.

I suspect Hakuho was mortally embarassed and he had nothing in his extensive armoury to deal with the situation, hence his rationality temporarily deserted him and he looked to the timekeeper hoping he could somehow turn back the clock...

*Not in the Darth Vader and Captain Needa sense.

Edited November 23, 2017 by RabidJohn

[Burajirotono 99]

16 hours ago, d_golem said:

 Talking about GOAT with attitude Cristiano Ronaldo

GOAT? CR? 

BP...

[orandashoho 720]

OK, I meant "understand" as in "understand it in your bones", without thinking about it, the understanding being part of who you are.
Nobody is asking that of foreigners, of course, but a yokozuna embodies Japanese culture and traditional values that other people may laugh at, and are expected to express them. It's second nature if you are indeed conditioned to this culture from an early age, but Hakuho has had countless episodes of his emotions getting away with him in a non-Japanese way, simply because his emotions aren't shaped by Japanese culture.

I think that it takes a tremendous struggle and many generations to free yourself of emotional reactions to intrinsic beliefs and cultural values. From what I have seen during my brief visit, the Japanese embrace the rigid formality of their interpersonal relations, because it so clearly defines what is acceptable behaviour, and will not stop teaching it to their children. It is part of everything in daily life, in the language, in the appreciation of the place you occupy, in your ability to interact with subtlety. And subtle Hakuho ain't. 

He invariably realizes his mistakes afterwards and makes an apology. I think that if a Japanese yokozuna had done what Hakuho had, it would not be so easily forgiven.

Edited November 23, 2017 by orandashoho

[Akinomaki 40,777]

23 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

OK, I meant "understand" as in "understand it in your bones", without thinking about it, the understanding being part of who you are.

This surely is a question of how understanding is understood here. Asking for the rikai type of understanding (as opposed to the plain wakarimasu!) also implies that you accept and agree with that.

But nobody shows it better than Taka that being trained to conform to the rules actually doesn't make this reach to the bones - like everywhere else in the world it may just be the surface, though usually handled with natural perfection. That makes carefully prepared treachery even more effective - and Japanese history is just as full of it as that of every other region. I'm eagerly awaiting how the story of this (apparently ill prepared) one will go on  -  but that is another thread.

[orandashoho 720]

1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

But nobody shows it better than Taka that being trained to conform to the rules [...]

There is a difference between premedidated action and emotional outbursts ... ... at least, this is what I think. But hey, what do I know? I am only a foreigner.

[Akinomaki 40,777]

5 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

There is a difference between premedidated action and emotional outbursts ... ... at least, this is what I think. But hey, what do I know? I am only a foreigner.

In sumo, you are supposed to not show your emotions - you have to let them burst in the inside. I wouldn't say that Hakuho is not as good in this as a Japanese rikishi: it didn't seem to me that there was much of an emotional outburst from Hakuho, less than with an extra shove, he just continued to behave weird and unacceptable, just as if he had too much of a pre-yusho party the day before.

I don't believe that Hakuho didn't realize that it was unacceptable what he was doing - it felt like there is an open season now for weird behavior - called by the initiator of the ongoing scandal.

[Burajirotono 99]

I was watching sumo other day with my girl (who dosn´t gives a s* for sumo), she saw a rikishi, without know him, and say; "why this guy is so cocky? Why he is looking with a half smile to his opponent?"

Hakuho? Nop...

Guess who...Starts with a K...

 

[lackmaker 438]

Ken Dodd?

[Benihana 1,937]

Shikihide (thanks for the correction) oyakata's really looking like he's on the brink of going super saiyan on Hakuho. Never saw a shinpan that *pissed*...really want to know what was said...

Edited November 24, 2017 by Benihana

[Stein 30]

58 minutes ago, Burajirotono said:

I was watching sumo other day with my girl (who dosn´t gives a s* for sumo), she saw a rikishi, without know him, and say; "why this guy is so cocky? Why he is looking with a half smile to his opponent?"

Hakuho? Nop...

Guess who...Starts with a K...

 

My wife, who doesnt watch sumo either, used to tell me that Mr K looked "Evil and cocky" hehe

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

My old conspiracy-loving self is truly intrigued with Hakuho's little show. Unlike some of the newer voices here, I'm very much convinced that Hakuho is indeed totally capable of playing along to the Japanese cultural tune. One could argue that during all of his reign, with all his record shattering and dominating, he was always careful to keep up his humble and complying (and somewhat boring) behaviour. (Not even speaking of giving wins to each of the respective newest Japanese Next Best Future Hope left and right.)

So this current thing is absolutely astonishing. I also note, that his standing-around gig is not emotion driven (i.e. not physically offensive), but passive to the extreme. It's basically defiance by non-action. Which is the only kind of defiance he can get away with without any more serious repercussions.

Thus, I totally jump on the bandwagon: Deliberate, premediated smokescreen to distract from Harumafuji. And: He knows what's behind all THAT weird business with the Mongols, the Takas and the other involved oyakata, doesn't like anything of it a bit and chose a creative way to piss a line into the sand.

Edited November 23, 2017 by yorikiried by fate

[Asashosakari 19,655]

33 minutes ago, Benihana said:

This is Tatekawa oyakata, right?

That's Shikihide (ex-Kitazakura).