Shikimori Inosuke sexual harassment and drink talk..

[Churaumi 743]

Worst case is there won’t be any tate-gyoji for a while, until someone is ready for promotion. Sumo has only had one for a while now, and basho have been and will continue to be occurring and worth watching.

[orandashoho 720]

So, did the riji-kai touch upon the matter of Shikimori Inosuke's retirement and the tate-gyoji succession at all? Or is this issue dererred till after Natsu basho?

[Yatagarasu 352]

24 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

So, did the riji-kai touch upon the matter of Shikimori Inosuke's retirement and the tate-gyoji succession at all? Or is this issue dererred till after Natsu basho?

As far as I recall, they'll wait until he's finished serving his suspension, whereupon they will announce whether they accept his previously tendered resignation.  

[orandashoho 720]

That said, the Kyokai is still short of tate-gyojis... mustn't they find a successor before he is retired and off the banzuke?

[Kintamayama 45,161]

3 hours ago, orandashoho said:

That said, the Kyokai is still short of tate-gyojis... mustn't they find a successor before he is retired and off the banzuke?

Nobody seems to be in a hurry. Let's not forget that this is Shikimori Inosuke who is actually the number 2 guy. The number one spot of Kimura Shounosuke, has been vacant for a few years now.. They will probably fix stuff in July when the horny one's suspension officially becomes a retirement.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kintamayama

[Churaumi 743]

And, they replace Tate-gyoji at a glacial pace. Isn’t it usual for a year or more to go by before they finally appoint one after one retires?

[orandashoho 720]

Can the banzuke be without any tate-gyoji's (Shikimori or Kimura) then?

[Asashosakari 19,403]

54 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

And, they replace Tate-gyoji at a glacial pace. Isn’t it usual for a year or more to go by before they finally appoint one after one retires?

There's no consistent way (see here, grey fields = vacancy periods), but in general I'd say that there's usually direct succession if a suitable candidate is available.

Edit: Incidentally, that table (assuming it's accurate) also answers the preceding question - both positions were unfilled in Hatsu and Haru 1994.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Bumpkin 438]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

There's no consistent way (see here, grey fields = vacancy periods), but in general I'd say that there's usually direct succession if a suitable candidate is available.

Edit: Incidentally, that table (assuming it's accurate) also answers the preceding question - both positions were unfilled in Hatsu and Haru 1994.

Oh, how I wish that chart were in English.

[Kuroyama 715]

12 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

Oh, how I wish that chart were in English.

First columm - 木村庄之助 - Kimura Shonosuke
Second column - 式守伊之助 - Shikimori Inosuke
Third column - 木村玉之助 - Kimura Tamanosuke (tate-gyoji of Osaka sumo with rank retained after the merger)
Fourth column - 備考 - Remarks. This generally shows when there's a promotion from one tate-gyoji position to another. So, for November, 2011 when it says 38代伊之助→36代庄之助  it's informing us that the 38th Shikimori Inosuke became the 36th Kimura Shonosuke. With the following exceptions:

1927 - the 3 tate-gyoji system is instituted due to the east-west merger.
1951 - return to the 2 tate-gyoji system with with the release of Tamanosuke.
1994 - For the first time in history both tate-gyoji ranks were vacant.

Strangely, they're just listing the times during which each successive name holder was at that rank. They don't give their real names, or link to specific articles about them even when they exist. And I know at least a few exist, such as https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/式守伊之助_(19代) (the 19th Shikimori Inosuke, aka the one with the beard) because I had occasion to look him up once.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Kuroyama

[Asashosakari 19,403]

3 hours ago, Kuroyama said:

1951 - return to the 2 tate-gyoji system with with the release of Tamanosuke.

"Release" is probably not the best translation there. They demoted the inherited name (and its then-current holder, Tamanosuke 13) to a newly created position of fuku-tate (deputy chief) gyoji.

[Kuroyama 715]

11 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

"Release" is probably not the best translation there. They demoted the inherited name (and its then-current holder, Tamanosuke 13) to a newly created position of fuku-tate (deputy chief) gyoji.

"Relegation" or "demotion" would have been better, yes.

I tried making an English-version chart, but couldn't get it to paste in properly. I might to use a different word processor or something.

[orandashoho 720]

I liked the Japanese table, so I copied it into my book, getting a little gyoji name kanji writing practice in the process. The meaning of the Japanese text was clear enough from the context, except for the remarks for 1927.1, 1951.5 and 1994. Thanks for the translation!

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

 

[Akinomaki 40,605]

The 40th Inosuke had officially retired end of May, and on June 1st was re-employed by the NSK at the sumo museum, where the exhibition "Gyoji attire" was shown till Dec. 26th. http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20181228_834076.html

[athelitextreme 6]

It's frustrating that in Sumo, incidents by individuals are considered a stain on the sport. In other sports, coaches and athletes commit much more serious offenses and crimes, but it's always about the individual(s) involved and not a reflection of the sport.

[Churaumi 743]

7 hours ago, athelitextreme said:

It's frustrating that in Sumo, incidents by individuals are considered a stain on the sport. In other sports, coaches and athletes commit much more serious offenses and crimes, but it's always about the individual(s) involved and not a reflection of the sport.

I've got to put that to the semi-monastic lifestyle of the stables coupling with some quirks of Japanese culture. The oyakata (in theory) have so much control over the selection and lifestyles of their charges that their behavior is a reflection of the boss. I, for one, am fine with it. Sumo is a pretty low-drama sport compared to the big American leagues. While there are MOST DEFINITELY areas the NSK needs to improve, I'll still take it.

[Yamanashi 3,861]

42 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

I've got to put that to the semi-monastic lifestyle of the stables coupling with some quirks of Japanese culture. The oyakata (in theory) have so much control over the selection and lifestyles of their charges that their behavior is a reflection of the boss. I, for one, am fine with it. Sumo is a pretty low-drama sport compared to the big American leagues. While there are MOST DEFINITELY areas the NSK needs to improve, I'll still take it.

I've gotta agree with that.  I can't speak for Europe (though it's probably true) but in the US scandal is individual, and if at all possible the clubs or league would rather not dismiss the high-quality talent [this does not apply to the current situation, where Marxist struggle sessions are involved].

It's not possible  legally here to tell your team that they can't have cellphones, etc.  And it's not possible to imagine the Abi situation happening here, for example.  Shoot, the whole heya system would be illegal here -- it would be broken up under laws involving cults or slavery.

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying that the Japanese government or the NSK should abolish anything.  I'm just pointing out that the whole Ozumo system is sui generis.

[nagora 88]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I've gotta agree with that.  I can't speak for Europe (though it's probably true) but in the US scandal is individual, and if at all possible the clubs or league would rather not dismiss the high-quality talent [this does not apply to the current situation, where Marxist struggle sessions are involved].

What are "Marxist struggle sessions"? Is this a form of philosophy-sumo I've been unaware of?

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

It's not possible  legally here to tell your team that they can't have cellphones, etc. 

Surely you can place any conditions - other than requiring the player to do something illegal - on membership of a team or club you like? Unless it falls foul of equality laws, I suppose (and sumo might have just a few issues there).

[dada78641 884]

This is a bit of a necropost.

2 hours ago, nagora said:

Surely you can place any conditions - other than requiring the player to do something illegal - on membership of a team or club you like? Unless it falls foul of equality laws, I suppose (and sumo might have just a few issues there). 

I'm no lawyer but I'm sure that in most jurisdictions you could successfully challenge certain restrictions on your life, such as being banned from using social media. Of course, that doesn't mean you can go slander or threaten your employer on social media, but in principle you can't just take away someone's right to utilize their freedom of speech in their free time if they behave appropriately. If you fire someone for perfectly appropriate social media use in their own free time, that runs afoul of labor laws. At least, I know this to be the case in the Netherlands and in the UK where I've worked and underwent employee training.

edit: maybe it's different in the right to work law states in the US though, I'm not sure.

Edited May 4, 2021 by dada78641

[athelitextreme 6]

I believe that by now, someone entering Sumo and his parents, are well aware of the lifestyle involved and the required strict adherence. I competed in football and wrestled in the 275-pound class in high school. Unfortunately, I didn't discover Sumo until my mid-twenties. After experiencing the amateur Dohyō, had I found it sooner, I certainly would have traveled to Japan to attempt to join a Heya and endure whatever was required to be successful.

Is the NSK perfect? Of course not, but there are good and bad experiences in many avenues of life.

Edited May 5, 2021 by athelitextreme

[Yamanashi 3,861]

5 hours ago, dada78641 said:

edit: maybe it's different in the right to work law states in the US though, I'm not sure.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.    No.

[nagora 88]

11 hours ago, dada78641 said:

If you fire someone for perfectly appropriate social media use in their own free time, that runs afoul of labor laws.

I wasn't thinking about labour laws; you're quite right. Although I wonder how that would work with those who are not on a salary - which in itself would probably be illegal. The whole thing is so alien to Western sport and work that it's hard to make any sensible comparisons.

[athelitextreme 6]

On 05/05/2021 at 01:00, nagora said:

I wasn't thinking about labour laws; you're quite right. Although I wonder how that would work with those who are not on a salary - which in itself would probably be illegal. The whole thing is so alien to Western sport and work that it's hard to make any sensible comparisons.

Judging by the millions of dollars that some known criminal athletes are payed in Western sports, I question who has the better system.

Edited May 6, 2021 by athelitextreme

[Jejima 1,398]

Things are often banned for the England teams by their managers....

Football

Chips and tomato ketchup

Starbucks

Rugby Union

Mobile phones