Women mount dohyo during emergency at jungyo

[Yatagarasu 352]

Whichever translation you take, Ikenobo's arguments remain self-contradictory and, frankly, self-interested.  Either children risk getting injured or they don't.  If they do, then no kids in the dohyo events. Simple. And while she's at it she may as well ban sumo in schools.  Bah!  It doesn't suit her long-term interests to expressly support breaking tradition in sumo, but suited her when her daughter came to inherit the mantle of the Ikenobo school.  

It seems a lot of people are clutching their pearls and hiding behind tradition over a possible floodgates argument that they are unwilling to step up and openly admit: the vibe I get is that they fear that if you allow women to set foot on the dohyo, next you'll have them infiltrating the very inner sanctum of sumo, being gyojis or shimpan, or - heaven forfend - living in heya as rikishi or being NSK shareholders!  Nobody for one minute is advocating mixed sumo in the sense of pitting male and female competitors against each other in competition or having mixed living quarters for male or female rikishi.  The feeling of brotherhood or sisterhood in single-sex team sports can have its own merits.  Many women might spar with male opponents in training in various other contact sports (I have enjoyed mixed sparring in both fencing and kendo, for example), but would never want to compete against them in tournament conditions for a number of logical and scientifically sound reasons (that said, I think some UFC women have expressed that they'd be happy to fight men, but that's a different debate).  Mixed gender competition is not what this is about and the traditionalists can be assured that there is no appetite for that.  But it might just be nice if the non-rikishi women in sumo, such as the Okami-san, the parents and daughters of rikishi and prize-giving officials, could participate in the same way as their male counterparts.  I loved that Kakuryuu swept his little girl in his arms when he posed with his trophy and had her next to him in his photo.  But she won't be able to cut his mage on the dohyo when the time eventually comes, which I find very sad indeed.  Really, how would allowing her this privilege make the sky fall?

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

Little fun fact:

On average, between age 9 yrs 7 mths and 12 yrs 2 mths, Japanese girls are taller than Japanese boys (like almost everwhere). Between 10 yrs 10 mths and 12 yrs 2 mths, they are also heavier. I thought that children going up against rikishi are younger than that, but as one of the officials talked about 4th and 5th graders as the key cohort for sumo with kids, it is somewhat ironic to talk about girls being more vulnerable.

http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Kids_Average_Height_and_Weight_by_Age_in_Japan

http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Girls_Average_Height_and_Weight_by_Age_in_Japan

[Asashosakari 19,653]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The latest talk about not allowing elementary school girls n the dohyo has led some media people to say that this would not have happened if Takanohana was still head of the jungyo. but female sumo journalist Reiko Ono begs to differ. "Takanohana Oyakata is an oyakata who respects tradition,  so he said he wants this to stop and he was the one who said so," she said, saying it was Takanohana's idea. "It was formally decided during the last October jungyo", she added. 

This is rapidly getting into "I am Spartacus" territory. Who'll be next to claim it was his idea, or have it attributed to him by a third party?

[Chankomafuji 51]

On 4/11/2018 at 15:58, Sakura said:

I've never considered myself a feminist, and I think you're reading too much into my post. I'm simply stating that gender discrimination is a thing, which you didn't seem to want to acknowledge.

No, and no. Though I am curious to know why you chose to use the words `woman pride'. Personally, I think too much pride is a bad thing, but I am pleased with some of my achievements. But those have nothing to do with the fact that I'm a woman. Do you have pride based on your gender?

I would like to go further into the religion thing, but forum rules prohibit me. As far as Sumo goes, I see the image of the woman allowed on the dohyo half a century ago, and I notice that there are Shinto priestesses and conclude that there is no basis for the rule aside from discrimination.

  Reveal hidden contents

Likewise, if men want to talk about their genitalia they can do that, but I don't think women have the right to talk about it in any demeaning way (including talking about the size). The same thing applies to breasts. If women want to make comments about breast size they can (I don't, personally) but I don't think men should.

 

I wondered for long if I should comment this thoughts or not but I am afraid, in the name of finding what is right or wrong, I'll risk to continue our conversation. (It is perhaps worth to mention right here that in some, respectable or not, websites the comment section for mr. Gunning's article were disabled, and the explanation is nothing but imposing an opinion.)

For the first quote, as you personally do state "that gender discrimination is a thing",  ((I say "personally", because it is yet someone (a high Japanese official or people inside sumo for example) to label it as "gender discrimination")), you forget to state that this is only your interpretation. Now if I will acknowledge, or agree, with your interpretation is on my conscious. And I believe you do respect that, just as I do respect your interpretation.

The second quote had the question "Do you have pride based on your gender?". Yes, I certainly do. I am proud and thankful to the hundreds of thousands warriors (which over 99% were men) who died in battle so I can be born and raised in a free country, as a free person. You are not going to bash me by saying "there should have been women  there too", right? Now if you cannot find a reason to be proud being a woman, that is, again, your choice and understanding. Which I do respect. 

As for the third one, it was already mentioned that this topic is not one without controversy. So even the "religion thing" that you mention (which by the way naming it like this makes me guess your negative views on religion in general, and again, I do respect your views) is worth mentioning if there is at least a CLOSE example of what we talk about here in sumo. Unlike the sacrifices mr. Gunning is talking about, which again, I find totally unacceptable. 

But this again reminds me of a conversation that I saw on TV between feminist women and non-feminist women which I saw on the TV. And one of the non-feminist woman was a university professor and she said "I am offended by the fellow women (feminist) who want to make the public believe that we women are constantly discriminated or humiliated. It is clear that in our democratic country this does not exist as we have successful women in almost every field where a women has interests in, but that is not the case with feminism. They actually WANT to feel discriminated, so they can always have something to gripe for. It is one endless circle serving political interests". 

orandashoho, allow me to disagree with your opinion that "Japan is a country of extremes.". If we call Japan "extreme" and taking "The Rule" in sumo in account, which exists for many years and few bothered to discuss it, I don't know which country we can call *antonym of extreme*, as we often see in the news that school shootings happen in some places of the world, for example.

And because of this my suggestion is that we leave this question to the Japanese people and their conscious instead of bashing their traditions ((yes, some in Japan (as we read here) named it "tradition", do some not respect that opinions?)). It will be more acceptable, in my opinion, that this thread becomes only a source of information in what is happening in Japan, instead of "plowing their gardens while we haven't plow our own" as we are hardly "more faithful than the Saints". 

[Yamanashi 3,903]

I have to admit (independent of the current controversy) I saw pictures of (Ichinojo?) holding two little boys aloft while another was attacking the back of his knees, and thought "what if his knee had collapsed and he fell backward onto that child?"

 

[rhyen 1,846]

52 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

This is rapidly getting into "I am Spartacus" territory. Who'll be next to claim it was his idea, or have it attributed to him by a third party?

and the best slow burn/charcoal grill just appear, I think.

PS: can someone translate this (I am only relying on google translate)

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20180413-00000015-jct-ent

[Akinomaki 40,774]

3 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

Whichever translation you take, Ikenobo's arguments remain self-contradictory and, frankly, self-interested.  Either children risk getting injured or they don't.  If they do, then no kids in the dohyo events. 

There was nothing contradictory in Ikenobo's talk. She said that the rikishi don't like to get into real bouts against the girls, and that is what they have to do when they face 4th graders and above: you may have seen how big these kids are already and how they fight at wampaku tournaments - both girls and boys.

It is still common to deem it as normal that boys get injured while playing with boys and as a shame when boys injure girls. You can never have a proper contest of boys against girls because of that. And if you limit the girls to up to 5 years like it was common at most locations, the injuries are  more likely - of course for the boys as well, but that is normal for both the boys and the rikishi and the parents.

There is e.g. also a ban on women entering the koshien baseball fields during tournaments for reasons of safety.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Fukurou 534]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I have to admit (independent of the current controversy) I saw pictures of (Ichinojo?) holding two little boys aloft while another was attacking the back of his knees, and thought "what if his knee had collapsed and he fell backward onto that child?"

Gender neutral child pizza?

[Marcus33 10]

9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I have to admit (independent of the current controversy) I saw pictures of (Ichinojo?) holding two little boys aloft while another was attacking the back of his knees, and thought "what if his knee had collapsed and he fell backward onto that child?"

 

Even if I was a 400 lb Ozeki I would be worried about what could  happen if Ichinojo fell on me, especially if it was off the side of the dohyo.

[Akinomaki 40,774]

Ikenobo on the 12th said on Goody "First of all, I want a woman become prime minister." "Therefore I think the rules have to be changed." http://www.hochi.co.jp/sports/sumo/20180412-OHT1T50109.html

- this doesn't mean just the rules of sumo, but of society in general.

There was nothing lost in the translation from yesterday, but it was the translation of a mutilated version of what Ikenobo said, from here: http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20180413/sum18041315170003-n1.html - she said nothing of women in general in that sentence, only of the possible one future female prime minister.

On the 13th, Goody Goodday had a longer version of the interview from tokudane.

Each time in those interviews Ikenobo emphasizes that there are important traditions to keep and obsolete traditions that need to be changed, in sumo that had been done all the time. "It has to change with the times. I 'd like everybody to understand that just blindly insisting on something is not tradition. What is OK to change should be changed." - then she also said "I think it's OK that girls step onto the dohyo" - at keiko with kids.

She definitely in her remarks hints that the tradition we are talking about here is among those that have be changed, and as always she claimed that hearing the view of externals on this is important, but most important is the view of the rikishi and those who are doing it on location. It has to be discussed thoroughly -  there is no reason to simply change everything at once and let woman step onto the dohyo just now. One has to  proceed carefully.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,774]

The reason of injuries by girls for banning them in more detail from Shibatayama:

It's not that girls get injured more: the reports of girls getting injured stand out more - first of all, only a small fraction of the kids that took part were girls.

"It's not simply OK for a boy to get injured, but it mustn't happen that a girl gets scars to remain on her face."

http://www.hochi.co.jp/sports/sumo/20180412-OHT1T50238.html

It's also easy to imagine that it will get reported more often and with more indignation - by the family and by the local promoters - when one of the few girls gets injured, than when a boy gets injured.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Akinomaki

[Yamanashi 3,903]

34 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The reason of injuries by girls for banning them in more detail from Shibatayama:

It's not that girls get injured more: the reports of girls getting injured stand out more - first of all, only a small fraction of the kids that took part were girls.

"It's not simply OK for a boy to get injured, but it mustn't happen that a girl gets scars to remain on her face."

http://www.hochi.co.jp/sports/sumo/20180412-OHT1T50238.html

It's also easy to imagine that it will get reported more often and with more indignation - by the family and by the local promoters - when one of the few girls gets injured, than when a boy gets injured.

So girls are bigger and stronger than boys, but if a girl accidentally gets hurt then the person that hurts her is a subhuman monster and so are all associated with him?

Come on, everyone knows the "Double Standard" doesn't exist any more. (sarcasm off).

[Akinomaki 40,774]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

it mustn't happen that a girl gets scars to remain on her face.

And to clarify: there was no such injury yet - they ban the girls because it MIGHT happen.

But how do we know if such a girl might not boast in school later: "I got that scar from a fight against Mitakeumi."

[orandashoho 720]

5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

"It's not simply OK for a boy to get injured, but it mustn't happen that a girl gets scars to remain on her face."

Doesn't anybody see how this confirms the belief that the most important attribute of a women is her LOOKS,  her physical attractiveness? We still live in the stone age of the caveman's hindbrain. No wonder that so many women have to resort to exploiting their looks to get ahead in life. And that many not so blessed must fight so hard to be counted.

Quote

But how do we know if such a girl might not boast in school later: "I got that scar from a fight against Mitakeumi."

I love for the time to come that such a boast is met with admiration.

Edited April 14, 2018 by orandashoho

[torquato 1,075]

4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

But how do we know if such a girl might not boast in school later: "I got that scar from a fight against Mitakeumi."

I wish I had this childhood scar from a fight with… errr… perhaps Kitonoumi at my age. Much better story than to say that I just fell off the bicycle… o_O

Edited April 14, 2018 by torquato
Typo

[Benevolance 2,511]

I'll just point out that Kitanoumi is unable to gainsay you...and may I be the first to congratulate you on an excellently fought bout against such a legendary rikishi...

[Marcus33 10]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

And to clarify: there was no such injury yet - they ban the girls because it MIGHT happen.

But how do we know if such a girl might not boast in school later: "I got that scar from a fight against Mitakeumi."

I was just going to ask if this had ever happened. Sounds like it's merely an excuse.

[serge_gva 52]

On 11/04/2018 at 18:46, Chankomafuji said:

It is clear, that by "our country" you are talking about Japan. What I cannot understand is, after reading all this article, can you really (or more likely, should you) really call Japan your country? 

What are you exactly trying to say here? That a true Japanese respects traditions? And all traditions, even the most obsolete? If so, then you are wrong. I do not deny that some/the majority of Japanese people have a fondness for traditions. But not all of them. Some are progressive. And yes, they are absolutely 100% japanese. No, they are not hāfu...

Quote

Have you ever heard about Mount Athos? The monastic community is too part of the "modern world" you are talking about (and since you support it with years it implies that by "modern world" you mean "nowadays"). A woman has not step foot in over thousand years. And because you like to generalize and use splendid examples, as you often in this article go beyond sumo, I encourage you to get familiar with Mount Athos is and explain the monks, with your extraordinary "modern" understanding, why women should not be ... persecuted. Why men should not be "privileged" and you can tell them stories about gender-fluid, transgender, android, avatar and artificial intelligence. 

In fact, some people have already been busy explaining to these monks why women should not be persecuted: the European parliament (point 98). Moreover, in the very theoretical case where a woman would be fined after having walked on this soil (some of them have already entered in recent years, btw), I have not doubt that this conviction will be invalidated by the European Court of Human Rights. 

Quote

I do understand that this is only an opinion. But the "japantimes" is a media. In this case it can no longer be defined only as an "opinion". 

There are several types of articles in newspapers. Commentary and opinion pieces are part of them.

Edited April 16, 2018 by serge_gva

[Shinrei 47]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:31, Yatagarasu said:

Either children risk getting injured or they don't.  If they do, then no kids in the dohyo events. Simple.

Makes sense to me. So, for those who know, how long was there a tradition of allowing girls to participate in the "kiddie sumo"? How long has there been any kiddie sumo - which I imagine started with boys only?

 

On 4/14/2018 at 12:42, Yamanashi said:

The reason of injuries by girls for banning them in more detail from Shibatayama:

"It's not simply OK for a boy to get injured, but it mustn't happen that a girl gets scars to remain on her face."

Hmm. His best attempt at saving face?  ((sigh))

[Shinrei 47]

On 4/14/2018 at 18:18, orandashoho said:

Doesn't anybody see how this confirms the belief that the most important attribute of a women is her LOOKS,  her physical attractiveness? We still live in the stone age of the caveman's hindbrain. No wonder that so many women have to resort to exploiting their looks to get ahead in life. And that many not so blessed must fight so hard to be counted.

Well... belief or base instinct? (Man prefer pretty woman for, uh, babymaking attempt)

Or a belief in a base instinct involving gender inequality? (Man strong and tough and mean, man better)

Speaking of which, perhaps this particular article has some additional relevance or ... reinforcement.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/11/02/national/social-issues/japan-drops-114th-gender-equality-rankings-world-economic-forum/

[Yatagarasu 352]

5 hours ago, Shinrei said:

Hmm. His best attempt at saving face?  ((sigh))

Boooooooo!  <throws tomato>

[orandashoho 720]

4 hours ago, Shinrei said:

Well... belief or base instinct? (Man prefer pretty woman for, uh, babymaking attempt)

Or a belief in a base instinct involving gender inequality? (Man strong and tough and mean, man better)

Yes of course it is biology and instinct, the hindbrain is governing gut reactions. Looks are essential to gain respect and success -- people with asymmetrical faces or twisted bodies are rarely seen as role models. Why do you think so many women preserve their looks with cosmetic surgery? It's so much harder to be respected if you're "fat" and "ugly". Beneath the political correctness in some countries, sexploitation is still rife. I'm not saying that you can discount biological facts. I am saying that everything we do or think is distorted by the need to fit into male or female roles. I'm saying that this is perpetuated with conditioning in early life and no amount of deprogramming can undo it without creating new convoluted ways of treating members of the opposite sex. I am saying this: babies and toddlers should be treated as gender neutral human beings and children must be allowed to develop free of sexual segregation, because that will create a better basis for equality than any law or politically correctness -- but of course we could make a start by allowing little girls on dohyos, allowing them the experience of scrapes and cuts and bruises, because they don't have to become dolls and a cut on their face should never be the end of their usefulness in life.
 

[Yatagarasu 352]

1 hour ago, orandashoho said:

we could make a start by allowing little girls on dohyos, allowing them the experience of scrapes and cuts and bruises, because they don't have to become dolls and a cut on their face should never be the end of their usefulness in life.
 

Well indeed.  While I can understand concern of parents, of both boys and girls, for their children not to get injured in the dohyo, cuts and scrapes are essentially a normal part of any child growing up who isn't permanently rolled in bubble wrap.  Any kid doing sports, whether among only girls, only boys, or mixed, can end up with an injury and I do empathise with parents who might have reservations about putting a child in a situation that is more likely to 'attract' injury.  That said, all of the worst injuries I've suffered in life have arisen in perfectly ordinary non-sport circumstances: broke my ankle falling down some stairs at a train station, required stitches following a cut on some broken crockery and, when I was a kid, was accidentally hit in the face with a bat by my younger sister, acquiring a scar.  We were playing in the garden because, ironically, my mother forbade us from playing in the street with the other kids for fear of, among other things, being injured.  My point is that people have to draw a line somewhere with the degree of acceptable risk in dohyo events.  Perhaps an easier and more valid distinction is that children can compete if they are already members of some sort of sumo or wrestling club at school.  Then at least they are unafraid of taking a tumble and know how to fall.  

I guess I was lucky though - my sister and I were given toys (dolls, toy cars, lego, my little pony, computer games, toy dinosaurs...) without any distinction between them being 'for boys' or 'for girls'.  My dad taught us both of us how to change a plug or a tyre but also how to bake a kickass apple pie.  For him they were both equally worthwhile life skills for being an all-rounded human.  It's not until I've grown up that I realise that we were perhaps unconventional by 1980s standards.  

[Jabbamaru 167]

Women should be free to mount whatever they want to mount. I'm totally pro-mounting.

[Akinomaki 40,774]

The name of the so called "young gyoji" who made the announcement of "women leave!" is still not reported in the news, though he is not a minor and the reporters should have no problems to know it. From the facts in this tabloid article, Kimura Masatoshi is the one. Entered after middle school, 22years old at the time, from Aichi, and this year turned sandanme gyoji. A person related to the heya (in that case Chiganoura): "He made the announcement not for the first 2 who rushed to help, but after another woman came up. He meant to prevent disorder." "He's feeling down now."

Kimura Masatoshi turned 23 yesterday - heya twitter of an older pic - he's at the jungyo now

o o

Edited April 19, 2018 by Akinomaki