Mochi kyuukin standings

[Akinomaki 40,020]

I extract the mochi-kyuukin data from the Nikkan banzuke ( together with the kensho data). I post them here each basho for those presently in makuuchi - in 1000 yen

For Nagoya

7732		Hakuho
1366		Kakuryu
1228		Kisenosato
828		Kotoshogiku
790		Goeido
744		Yoshikaze
686		Tochiozan
638		Takayasu
632		Tochinoshin
554		Okinoumi
552		Ikioi
544		Ichinojo
498		Shohozan
470		Endo
466		Tamawashi
454		Takarafuji
438		Hokutofuji
418		Takakeisho
412		Myogiryu
400		Mitakeumi
396		Arawashi
380		Chiyotairyu
340		Aoiyama
340		Chiyonokuni
338		Shodai
312		Kaisei
312		Onosho
300		Abi
288		Sadanoumi
272		Daishomaru
268		Daieisho
266		Kagayaki
262		Chiyoshoma
260		Chiyomaru
258		Asanoyama
258		Ryuden
256		Yutakayama
254		Nishikigi
250		Kyokutaisei
246		Ishiura
240		Kotoeko
240		Meisei

[Gaijingai 1,549]

Nothing is so good as the rich getting richer.

[Jakusotsu 5,866]

...or the witch getting a witcher.

No, I didn't day that. Please ignore!

[Ryoshishokunin 275]

Yet another way to see how far Hakuho is ahead of the field.  I don't suppose career-ending totals are available for historical rikishi? 

(Also, has the system of awarding them varied over time?)

[Benevolance 2,482]

7732 Hakuho

1366 Kakuryu

1228 Kisenosato

Mochikyūkin accounts of over 1000 yen (corresponding to an additional income of 24 million yen per year) have been achieved by the very strongest yokozuna such as Taihō and Chiyonofuji.

Wait, what? Did the system change somewhere along the way? Or do Kise and Kakuryu seriously have similar earning power to Taiho and the Wolf? 

[Asashosakari 18,950]

9 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Wait, what? Did the system change somewhere along the way? Or do Kise and Kakuryu seriously have similar earning power to Taiho and the Wolf? 

Kakuryu 1,366,000 yen actual payment = 341.5 yen base value. The quoted statement refers to a 1,000 yen base. Hakuho is approaching 2,000.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,950]

1 hour ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

(Also, has the system of awarding them varied over time?)

The multiplier for the aforementioned base value has changed over time:

since 1998: 4000
1985-1997:  2500
1970-1984:  1500
until 1969: 1000

While I'm at it, nearly a decade ago I put the following in a text file with some notes, but now I have no idea what the source was, nor do I really understand what it means (don't think I knew at the time either):

separate change in 1960.09: KK point standardized to 50 sen (?)

Anyone have any insight what the "standardized" part might have been about?

(Also, something that may or may not be related: Official sources give Taiho's final total as 1489.5 yen, but calculating it based on his career records gives 1491. I've never been able to ascertain where the difference comes from.)

Edited July 7, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,007]

 

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

(Also, something that may or may not be related: Official sources give Taiho's final total as 1489.5 yen, but calculating it based on his career records gives 1491. I've never been able to ascertain where the difference comes from.)

Any possibility his 11-2-2 record might have something to do with it?  However, it seems like it would be off 1 yen if there was a discrepancy in how yasumi were handled in calculating the addition for the KK.  Just something I noticed while going through to calculate it myself.

[Gurowake 4,007]

I count for Taiho 690 WoL in KKs for 345, 1 Kinboshi for 10, 32 Yusho for 960, 8 Zensho for an extra 160, an increase of 9 on promotion to Juryo (31 points as deshi), and an increase of 6 on promotion to Makuuchi(14 points as Juryo).  Despite quickly rising to Ozeki and Yokozuna, his kinboshi and yusho bonuses gave him more than the minimum for those promotions.  Those total 1490.  If you have 1491, I'm guessing you're counting the above mentioned 11-2-2 as 4.5 and not 3.5.  Still doesn't explain his half point, which I assume is somehow due to that "standardization" note you have.  The only possible thing I can see would be that his 8-0 Y 1958.03 was worth .5 less for some reason, as every other record he had multiple times.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,261]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

 

Anyone have any insight what the "standardized" part might have been about?

(Also, something that may or may not be related: Official sources give Taiho's final total as 1489.5 yen, but calculating it based on his career records gives 1491. I've never been able to ascertain where the difference comes from.)

I found this from here (1960 = shouwa 35):

 史上最高は大鵬の1,489円50銭ですが、勝ち越し１点50銭となったのが昭和35年９月、大鵬はそれより前にもう幕内にまで上がっていたので、 単純比較することは必ずしも正しくありません。

http://tsubotaa.la.coocan.jp/t_f_s_g/tfsg05.html

Seems not standardized to 50 sen but 1.50 yen. Nevermind 点 is the counter for KKs not a decimal point here. So it seems he is missing his 1960.01, .05 and .07 KKs?

I guess you need to know what was going on before that to understand what was standardized completely (I guess you could take a guess but what's a guess...)

 

Distantly related, this isn't the only monetary adjustment they made that basho. It was the first time that kenshou where only cash was paid out; food/stuff prizes were no longer allowed.

http://exsumo.server-shared.com/yougo/yougo-top.html

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Tsuchinoninjin
Terrible Japanese

[Asashosakari 18,950]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

I count for Taiho 690 WoL in KKs for 345

I'm counting 346 for that, and that's with treating the 11-2-2 as 11-4 (i.e. 3.5 points). Otherwise I'd even get a total of 1492, so the discrepancy to the official total would be shifting in the wrong direction. (***)

Quote

an increase of 9 on promotion to Juryo (31 points as deshi)

Technically 34+6, not 31+9. All rikishi start their careers with 3 yen.

Anyway, his results below makuuchi don't really matter because of the bonus additions on his promotions to juryo and makuuchi. Subsequent to reaching the top division, as far as I can tell he scored 60 Makuuchi base + 301 KK + 10 Kin + 1120 Yusho = 1491.

On further thought, I now doubt that whatever changed in 1960.09 is responsible for the Taiho discrepancy; he had three big KK in makuuchi before that, and it seems very unlikely that the difference between the old and new system would have amounted to only 1.5 yen for him. Maybe they used something other than 50 sen in the lower divisions before 1960, and what changed is that they made it the value for all bouts...? They had just reduced the lower-division schedules to 7 matches one basho before, so the timeline could fit. (This is basically where I've been all along, speculation without any actual source on how things differed before 1960.)

And a wild idea that came to me while staring at Taiho's career results - he had 3 fusensho in makuuchi. Maybe those didn't count for the bonus in his day? That's exactly 1.5 points worth.

*** Just to add, the official total for Chiyonofuji is 1447.5, and that definitely only works out if a 9-2-4 record of his gets counted as 9-6.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,950]

On another note, http://www.geocities.jp/mmts_sumo/saisoku.htm (and related pages linked at the top) features a very old version of the Kyokai by-laws (mid-1990s or so), including hosho-kin regulations, and includes this interesting/puzzling statement:

幕下以下の力士養成員に対しては、当分力士褒賞金は支給しない。　（昭和三十六年三月場所改正）

"Presently, hosho-kin is not paid to rikishi undergoing development in makushita and below. (Revised March 1961.)"

I'd sure like to know what exactly was revised there in 1961, because as written it sounds as though lower-rankers used to get the bonuses, too.

[Gurowake 4,007]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm counting 346 for that,

Yeah, I did all the calculations manually because the database imports the Y, D, J into the same cell as the record, and it would have taken more work to deal with that then just calculating it myself, and now that you've reiterated yours being correct I went back and double-checked and I screwed up one.  So there is a 1.5 difference.  Given the adjustment on Makuuchi debut was so close to that "standardization", if they are related there's not many basho to look at.  In fact, it's exactly three basho of KKs.  So, maybe as Tsuchinoninjin points out, each KK was worth .5 points less than it is now, meaning an 8-7 would be worthless.  Taiho never had an 8-7 interestingly enough.

Now are there any other rikishi from earlier eras that we have official final point totals for?

Edited July 8, 2018 by Gurowake

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,261]

11 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

On another note, http://www.geocities.jp/mmts_sumo/saisoku.htm (and related pages linked at the top) features a very old version of the Kyokai by-laws (mid-1990s or so), including hosho-kin regulations, and includes this interesting/puzzling statement:

幕下以下の力士養成員に対しては、当分力士褒賞金は支給しない。　（昭和三十六年三月場所改正）

"Presently, hosho-kin is not paid to rikishi undergoing development in makushita and below. (Revised March 1961.)"

I'd sure like to know what exactly was revised there in 1961, because as written it sounds as though lower-rankers used to get the bonuses, too.

Seems like makushita used to get something, not sure how much, maybe determined uniquely for each basho?
Then 見習 is below makushita?

Here is from showa 4 same entry:

第五十八条　力士の手当金は最低標準額を左の如く定む。但し地位降下の場合は昇給当時の増加額に相当する金額を滅ず。

　番附面幕下十両格以下　金〇円
　同　　　　十両格　　　金〇拾円
　同　　　　幕　内　　　金〇拾円
　同　　　　大　関　　　金〇拾円
　　　　　　　　　見　習　　金〇円〇拾銭

附出力士は其の成績を審査し位置及手当額を定む。但し勝負相半する者は幕下とし、其給額を〇円一番負越は三段目末席、二番以上の負越は序二段末席とし、全敗は序の口中位とす。
行事の手当は○拾円を制限として別に之を定む。

So, as far as I can tell, the 〇 are not zeros, but placeholders...
https://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/4731851.html

Also, we can see sen (銭）being paid out in units of 10, so who knows. All sen were void in showa 28.

Ref: http://goza.blog.shinobi.jp/寄附行為/

(There's a really super old by-laws in there too, before showa)

[Asashosakari 18,950]

2 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Seems like makushita used to get something, not sure how much, maybe determined uniquely for each basho?

As far as I understand it (which could well be wrong), before monthly salaries were introduced in 1957, all rikishi were paid based on the specific basho revenues, so definitely determined ad hoc for each tournament. Those payments might well have extended down to makushita, or perhaps even further. (I'd imagine that makushita used to have a somewhat higher profile than it does today, even into early Showa, considering the juryo division didn't exist as its own thing until 1888.)

Anyway, if so, the interesting part is why such a regulation might have been on the book until 1961, rather than getting scrapped in 1957 with the salary introduction already.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,261]

Oof, that'd be a small window to find the by-laws for sure.

Maybe has something to do with the quickly increasing membership at that time - maybe underestimating possible payments.