Hatsu Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[dingo 1,263]

5 hours ago, Fukurou said:

One match is only 1 match and it's always possible he could get his KK,

That makes me wonder, what if Kisenosato gets a 8-7 KK? Would he continue?

[Eikokurai 3,437]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

That ill-fated injury would have dropped Kisenosato out of Makuuchi already if he wasn't promoted to Yokozuna.

That’s true. He’d be keeping Terunofuji company in one of the lower divisions. But that’s the managed decline that an Ozeki can ‘enjoy’ in comparison to a Yokozuna.

[Rocks 1,809]

40 minutes ago, dingo said:

That makes me wonder, what if Kisenosato gets a 8-7 KK? Would he continue?

Absolutely. The problem is getting there. If the losses come faster than the wins he will drop out first. He won't be grabbing his 8th win on Day 15.

[Morty 1,495]

8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

 I’m reminded of a conversation several months ago about how sometimes being a Yokozuna is a curse. An Ozeki can prolong their career by managing their decline, like Kotoshogiku, whereas a Yokozuna must quit. I wonder if that’s gone through Kise’s mind at all over the past few months.

Given the choice I reckon almost every rikishi would take the rope and a shorter career. There have only been 72 Yokozuna over 300 odd years and achieving it brings fame and glory to the recipient. No matter what happened after he got the rope, no-one can take the fact that Kise is a Yokozuna away from him. He would have taken that option 100% of the time.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

17 minutes ago, Morty said:

Given the choice I reckon almost every rikishi would take the rope and a shorter career. There have only been 72 Yokozuna over 300 odd years and achieving it brings fame and glory to the recipient. No matter what happened after he got the rope, no-one can take the fact that Kise is a Yokozuna away from him. He would have taken that option 100% of the time.

I’m absolutely sure you’re right, but just to play devil’s advocate for a while longer, we fans may romanticize sumo in a way that perhaps rikishi themselves don’t. Fans often think of sumo as this great cultural event, steeped in honour and tradition, with becoming Yokozuna the ultimate manifestation of that honour. For plenty of rikishi though, sumo is just a job. A way to pay the proverbial bills. I’m sure there are some rikishi out there who’d rather fight on a few more years and make money for their families rather than retire as a Yokozuna too early. 

This is just a thought exercise, you understand. I agree with your point in general.

[sekitori 492]

6 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Wow, I'm really not going to make friends here, but Kisenosato should have packed it ages ago. 

He had a serious injury that was managed extremely poorly. He needed surgery and he didn't get it. He ended up with a weakened arm and people with weak arms don't last very long in sumo. Whether the lack of common sense in disregarding surgery was due to this advisors, Kisenosato himself, or  borh doesn't really matter.

I don't agree that he should have quit long ago. He was the first Japanese yokozuna in many years and I'm sure he knew that he was a great source of pride to Japanese sumo fans---and even some Japanese who know nothing about sumo. He became a national hero. Despite a posssible career ending injury, he tried his best to maintain that position. 

I never really liked Kisenosato--until he got hurt. He took a very long  time and  tried extremely hard to compete with an injury that prevented him from doing the sumo he was capable of. I find that attitude to be  highly admirable. He did his best and no matter what he tried, things just didn't work out. His body may have been weakened but I find absolutely nothing wrong with his character. I have finally become a Kisenosato fan--not as a rikishi but as a person who even though he apparently has failed, tried to do his absolute best under terrible conditions. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by sekitori

[Treblemaker 254]

I catch Moti's highlight package for the first tie in ages and the first thing I see is blood! That was a nasty headbutt Ikioi took. How he managed to finish the fight was testament to training and muscle memory. 

Other thoughts: How does Kise end up being ranked YE1? He had no power, and was easily shown the exit.

And logically, ichinojo should never lose a bout. Big and agile. 

Anyway, I might stick around a bit. I dearly miss the English broadcasts and there are new faces about which I know absolutely nothing. 

[robnplunder 975]

17 hours ago, word20 said:

Mitakeumi looked good today, he managed to do his style of sumo, he said in the interview. On the other hand it was not a good start for Kisenosato with a loss on the first day, this is the second loss in eight matches.

Kisenosato was back to the "push with one shoulder" tactic which has proven to be ineffective.    Will give a few more bouts to see if Kise is in form or should think about retiring.

[robnplunder 975]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

Absolutely. The problem is getting there. If the losses come faster than the wins he will drop out first. He won't be grabbing his 8th win on Day 15.

Not so sure.  If he goes 8-7, something is still wrong with him.   Who know what he'd be thinking then.

[Shinrei 47]

40 minutes ago, Treblemaker said:

Other thoughts: How does Kise end up being ranked YE1?

Maths. (0-5-10+N) > (0-0-15-N), where N is native/nihonjin.

 

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

6 minutes ago, Shinrei said:

Maths. (0-5-10+N) > (0-0-15-N), where N is native/nihonjin.

 

Are people still really propagating this crap?

[Shinrei 47]

12 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

Are people still really propagating this crap?

I could be mistaken. What's your take on it?

Edited January 14, 2019 by Shinrei

[Eikokurai 3,437]

35 minutes ago, Shinrei said:

I could be mistaken. What's your take on it?

It’s as simple as ‘he turned up’ I think. No Yokozuna managed a win in November. The NSK guys presumably rate failure over not appearing at all.

[sumojoann 1,264]

Did anyone else besides me notice Aoiyama kneeing Yoshikaze in the cojones at the end of their (Day 1) bout?  The bout was actually over by the time this happened, with Aoiyama being the winner.  Yoshikaze didn't react so I guess no damage was done.

[sumojoann 1,264]

It was a strange move, wasn't it?  It didn't seem to serve any purpose.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

13 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Did anyone else besides me notice Aoiyama kneeing Yoshikaze in the cojones at the end of their (Day 1) bout?  The bout was actually over by the time this happened, with Aoiyama being the winner.  Yoshikaze didn't react so I guess no damage was done.

A real Kintama highlight.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

It’s as simple as ‘he turned up’ I think. No Yokozuna managed a win in November. The NSK guys presumably rate failure over not appearing at all.

Yeah turning up is rated higher than not turning up. There is precedent for it, although of course in sumo precedents are broken over the eras. But there was no particular reason for this one to be broken.

[Apayasu 16]

8 hours ago, dingo said:

That makes me wonder, what if Kisenosato gets a 8-7 KK? Would he continue?

 

7 hours ago, Rocks said:

Absolutely. The problem is getting there. If the losses come faster than the wins he will drop out first. He won't be grabbing his 8th win on Day 15.

I don't think so. The expression "yokozuna kachi-koshi" exists for a reason. 8-7 is enough for retiring with some dignity. 

[Rocks 1,809]

2 minutes ago, Apayasu said:

 

I don't think so. The expression "yokozuna kachi-koshi" exists for a reason. 8-7 is enough for retiring with some dignity. 

No Yokozuna rules apply to Kisenosato . If he can come back, he will and they will let him.

[Apayasu 16]

4 hours ago, Treblemaker said:

And logically, ichinojo should never lose a bout. Big and agile. 

He is _more_ agile than last year, that's for sure, but we won't see him doing a henka :). 

As for the big part, I recall Tochinoshin lifting him up. So there is big and there is strong. Let's discuss on day 8 ;)

[Apayasu 16]

3 minutes ago, Rocks said:

No Yokozuna rules apply to Kisenosato . If he can come back, he will and they will let him.

You're right. I'm just  _guessing_  what he'll do / wants to do, not what the Comitte will let him do. 

[Kotomiyama 172]

6 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I’m absolutely sure you’re right, but just to play devil’s advocate for a while longer, we fans may romanticize sumo in a way that perhaps rikishi themselves don’t. Fans often think of sumo as this great cultural event, steeped in honour and tradition, with becoming Yokozuna the ultimate manifestation of that honour. For plenty of rikishi though, sumo is just a job. A way to pay the proverbial bills. I’m sure there are some rikishi out there who’d rather fight on a few more years and make money for their families rather than retire as a Yokozuna too early. 

This is just a thought exercise, you understand. I agree with your point in general.

Very interesting thought exercise as you say.

Just to continue a little bit with it: I think becoming a Yokozuna has a monetary side as well. Besides the benefits bestowed by the kyokai, there has to be an increase in earnings from advertising, endorsements and other contracts derived from this ultimate manifestation of sumo. Those benefits will stay to some extent after retirement. 

Taking all into account, I don't think Kisenosato would have wished for staying as an Ozeki even if he knew he would be injured so badly in the beginning of his Yokozuna career. 

[robnplunder 975]

Hmm, Myogiryu got robbed.   Takayasu, despite the win, looks weak so far.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

At least he didn't get plundered.

[robnplunder 975]

3 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

At least he didn't get plundered.

 

Not a good basho so far Ozekis.  Tochinoshin lost again.   I sense kadoban comming.