Takakeisho injury update

[Kintamayama 45,158]

2 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

Very worrying indeed. Let's pray they are not making the same stupid mistake and that the injury is not as serious than Kisenosato's. What comforts me a bit is that Takakeisho is younger so his body may heal better. Also Kisenosato was screaming in pain when his injury happened whereas Takakeisho was clearly in pain but it seemed more bearable hopefully it means the tear is not as severe.

He wasn't screaming, but as I wrote in the basho discussion thread, he was groaning loudly.

[Kintamayama 45,158]

He couldn't move his left arm at all backstage. "It's torn, " he was heard telling a tsukebito. He was also groaning quite loudly. "It happened when I pushed.. The pain.. so-so," he said. Then he apparently went to the hospital. "I haven't spoken to him on the phone. It is very worrisome. It's not something that heals in a week," said Chiganoura Oyakata, hinting at a probable kyujo from the jungyo. So, yes, it's serious. And this, from a secretive society that doesn't talk about injuries, so I'm guessing it may be even worse.

[RabidJohn 1,791]

I'm not a doctor but Takakeisho's "torn pectoral muscle" seems to me to be different, and possibly a tad less serious, than the "detached pectoral muscle" Kisenosato suffered. Hope so anyway...

[Jabbamaru 167]

Whaaat? Bummer, man...Bummer...

[sekitori 492]

8 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm not a doctor but Takakeisho's "torn pectoral muscle" seems to me to be different, and possibly a tad less serious, than the "detached pectoral muscle" Kisenosato suffered. Hope so anyway...

I'm repeating a post I placed in the Aki basho discuaaion topic. I deleted it because It belongs here instead. Since we have no idea at present of the severity of the injury (and it possibly may not be all that serious), my comments are nothing more than conjecture. For whatever they're worth, here they are:

Unlike Kisenosato's injury where absolutely nothing was done to promote complete recovery, Takakeisho's will be handled using the best medical treatment possible. It could be that the injury, like Hakuho's bicep injury, affected the muscle itself and not the tendon attaching it to the shoulder. In that case. the treatment will most llikely be rest. If as in Kisensato's case the tendon is ruptured, surgery will be required. Whatever the treatment may be, he will not compete again until medical experts agree that the injury has completely healed.

A very promising rikishi has gone through hell recovering from a knee injury and succeeding well beyond expectations. He now may possibly have to go through something similar again. Hopefully, this injury isn't as bad as it might seem. I wish him the very best. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by sekitori

[autotroph 43]

If he has actually detached his pectoral his career is over without surgery. Even with surgery, you would typically be prescribed recovery time on the order of 6 months. This can probably be reduced by 4 to 6 weeks by taking advantage of the drug-test-free sumo environment, but that would still see him lose his rank. Heartbreaking, I really like the guy. As someone else said about sumo success "deserve has nothing to do with it".

[just_some_guy 279]

The English article referred to it as a "strain." Not sure if that's an accurate translation or an accurate diagnosis, but if so the injury is not nearly as severe as one might fear.

[For those less familiar with English, a "strain" is a relatively minor tear and in this case would be just the muscle, not the tendons. I'd wager he would (or at least should) still sit the next tournament, but it would be far less severe than the Kisenosato injury.]

[Atenzan 1,081]

Good thing he can take at least 3.5 months off... 

[sekitori 492]

2 hours ago, just_some_guy said:

The English article referred to it as a "strain." Not sure if that's an accurate translation or an accurate diagnosis, but if so the injury is not nearly as severe as one might fear.

[For those less familiar with English, a "strain" is a relatively minor tear and in this case would be just the muscle, not the tendons. I'd wager he would (or at least should) still sit the next tournament, but it would be far less severe than the Kisenosato injury.]

I have heard of no official medical reports, but I just saw a YouTube video from Chris Gould who seems to know what he's talking about. His exact words were that Takakeisho "is out for six weeks with that pectoral injury". If his statement is even close to being accurate,  it means that the injury was to the muscle itself, not the tendon. If that's true, Takakeisho's situation would be similar to Hakuho's torn bicep muscle where rest is the preferred form of treatment. If his  injury is like Hakuho's, I would assume that six weeks will not be long enough for it to completely heal and that he could be kyujo for November. The good news is that surgery apparently is not required and although he may be a kadoban ozeki for the Hatsu basho, getting his eight wins should be no problem at all. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by sekitori

[ryafuji 815]

If he misses Kyushu that will be a grand total of three wins in his first three tournaments at the ozeki rank. I really hope this injury heals fully and he can finally get his ozeki career going. He seems to be cursed at the moment.

[Rainoyama 1,157]

3 minutes ago, sekitori said:

I just saw a YouTube video from Chris Gould who seems to know what he's talking about. His exact words were that Takakeisho "is out for six weeks with that pectoral injury". If his statement is even close to being accurate,  it means that the injury was to the muscle itself, not the tendon. If that's true, Takakeisho's situation would be similar to Hakuho's torn bicep muscle where rest,  not surgery is the preferred form of treatment. If Takakeisho's  injury is like Hakuho's, I would assume that six weeks will not be long enough for it to completely heal and  that he willl be kyujo for Fukuoka. The good news is that although he would be a kadoban ozeki for the Hatsu basho, getting his eight wins should be no problem at all. 

It's not just Chris Gould, That's what the oyakata told the press. Takakeisho had the MRI and according to the oyakaya he was told that 6 weeks of treatment are needed.

There's no need for him to compete  in November so that gives him until January to heal and get back to shape which if the diagnosis is correct seems doable. Even if he is not ready then he'll probably wait until March to come back now that he knows he can get the ten wins.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

The problem is the term "pec tear" and its variations mean different things depending upon whom you ask.

In some cases it means the tendon has torn from the bone. In others it means the tendon and muscle have torn where they differentiate. In yet others, the belly of the muscle has ruptured. In an even more rare case, the pec has separated from the sternum. Whether the tear is complete or partial is also a factor. In cases where it's partial, you might be able to get back to 70 or 80 percent of your former power if proper time and rehab are taken (four, five, maybe six months). In cases with surgery, you might get back 95% or more if you take those six to eight months to slowly recover and rehab. Just one "season". Not really tenable in sumo, unless somehow you were able to take maybe eight basho to work on that. There was one guy who could have, should have, perhaps would have done it given the chance now. And he's a very popular new oyakata. Still, counter examples do give them pause - Takanohana and Ura spring to mind. Different injury. Knees and shoulder girdles are not quite comparable. What to do...?

Edited September 24, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

If it is truly a rupture of the muscle belly, and no tendons/attachments are affected, the powerlifters I know use the Starr protocol (sans surgery).  But that info is between Takakeisho and his doc.

https://fitness.stackexchange.com/questions/9862/why-does-the-bill-starr-rehab-protocol-work-if-it-does

[Gabriel 13]

On 23/09/2019 at 23:19, autotroph said:

If he has actually detached his pectoral his career is over without surgery. Even with surgery, you would typically be prescribed recovery time on the order of 6 months. This can probably be reduced by 4 to 6 weeks by taking advantage of the drug-test-free sumo environment, but that would still see him lose his rank. Heartbreaking, I really like the guy. As someone else said about sumo success "deserve has nothing to do with it".

I think it is better for recovering is the tendon is dettached, because it cab be attached again with surgery, but, if it is only the muscle belly, there is nothing to do with it and you lose a lot of strenght and specially in the push movement Takakeisho makes, and this not takin into account that you can injury a lot easier than before. I hope I am wrong, but this injury can be quite worse than the knee one. In the image, it seems to be important, but, let us see what happens.

[Kamitsuumi 401]

I'm no doctor but the bruising looks pretty bad.

https://hochi.news/articles/20191001-OHT1T50099.html

[robnplunder 975]

Wow, that looks bad.

Takakeisho is a little guy and his all out fighting style is going to make him injury prone.   I wish him luck.

[rhyen 1,842]

*faints*

[Rainoyama 1,157]

It looks quite bad indeed, despite that Takakeisho seems hopeful and would like to be there for Kyushu if ready... I don't know what to think, is he really stupid enough to think he'll heal in time or is the injury not as bad as it looks ? Anyways here's the story.

Takakeisho was back to training today, as you can tell from the picture the injured area is quite swollen and the bruising is bad so he only did shiko and exercices for the lower body.

"It's getting a bit better I think, I'm following the treatment seriously. The colour looks bad now but it was much worse before [...] the bleeding is getting better as the days goes by" he explained

He confirmed the injury happened at the tachi ai and puts the blame on himself, saying his form was not the same as usual that day, his oshi was coming from the side and he thinks it was the cause. Despite that injury he still have a positive mindset "The injury is unfortunate but had it happened on day 8 I would'nt have returned to ozeki, even though I got injured I could fight for 15 days"

On kyushu (he won the tournament last year) "This basho was the turning point for me. I won't force myself to enter if I'm not ready but if I am I'd like to enter" he said

Same thing goes for the jungyo (starting in four days) apparently, he'll be kyujo at first but he wants to join if possible "If I'm ready enough I'd like to join the tour, tasting the athmosphere of the jungyo is important. I'll discuss it with my oyakata then decide"  https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201910010000395.html

Edited October 1, 2019 by Rainoyama

[Akinomaki 40,593]

The bruising looks quite similar to that of Kisenosato

Edited October 1, 2019 by Akinomaki

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,274]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The bruising looks quite similar to that of Kisenosato

Yeah you don't bruise like that from a strain.

Really sucks. 

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Sayonara Ozeki. Welcome to elevator-rikishi life in the salaried ranks. In the best-case scenario where you eventually regain up to 70% of your former power, hope you'll have enough gas to fend off Kotoshogiku. Nothing wrong with being a journeyman. You could have been a contender.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Yikes. That looks worse than the bruising Kisenosato had. His was quite localized. Takakeisho looks like a corpse with lividity setting in. It does not look promising.

[robnplunder 975]

1 hour ago, Otokonoyama said:

Sayonara Ozeki. Welcome to elevator-rikishi life in the salaried ranks. In the best-case scenario where you eventually regain up to 70% of your former power, hope you'll have enough gas to fend off Kotoshogiku. Nothing wrong with being a journeyman. You could have been a contender.

I know.  He shouldn't be out there training right now.  I ought to know, I had similarly devastating shoulder injuries (twice) and it really takes months to fully heal. He probably never had the same injury and doesn't know what he is doing.  

[sekitori 492]

5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

That looks worse than the bruising Kisenosato had. His was quite localized. 

Kisenosato's injury involved tearing the tendon attached to the shoulder.. Notice that most of Takakeisho's  discoloration from bleeding (ecchymosis) is located in the lower part of the muscle. The area near the shoulder isn't nearly as discolored.That indicates that his injury involves the belly of the muscle, not the tendon. There is an enormous difference between the two injuries. His course of treatment, like Hakuho's bicep injury, is rest. I see nothing wrong with his resuming training as long as it is done under medical supervision and there is absolutely no strain placed on the injured area. This injury occurred about a week and a half ago. The pectorailis major is a large muscle and Takekeisho is a very large human being, so an injury involving it is expected to visibly look pretty bad after such a short period of time. Two things are certain. The first is that the medical advice he's receiving is quite sound, allowing time to heal the injury and having him do nothing which would aggravate it. The second is that this injury will take quite a while to heal and he will be kyujo for Kyushu--and possibly for Tokyo in January as well. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by sekitori

[Lebesgue 0]

Wow, those pictures look scary. I have never seen bruises as hugh as those.

I really hope Takakeisho will be back at least in January... Losing ozeki rank again because of injury would be really disheartening.