Takakeisho injury update

[Dapeng 235]

2 hours ago, sekitori said:

Kisenosato's injury involved tearing the tendon attached to the shoulder.. Notice that most of Takakeisho's  discoloration from bleeding (ecchymosis) is located in the lower part of the muscle. The area near the shoulder isn't nearly as discolored.That indicates that his injury involves the belly of the muscle, not the tendon.

Which type of injury has better prognosis?

[Jabbamaru 167]

Ouch...looks horrible...The little guy is tough...

[sekitori 492]

4 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Which type of injury has better prognosis?

Because his treatment is much more conservative than Kisenosato's surgery would have been, Takakeisho would appear to me to have a  better prognosis. He will return to action much sooner and should be in pretty good condition when he does.  Surgery would have helped Kisenosato greatly, but I have no idea if his pectoral muscle would be as strong as it was before the tendon was torn. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by sekitori

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

8 hours ago, sekitori said:

Kisenosato's injury involved tearing the tendon attached to the shoulder.. Notice that most of Takakeisho's  discoloration from bleeding (ecchymosis) is located in the lower part of the muscle. The area near the shoulder isn't nearly as discolored.That indicates that his injury involves the belly of the muscle, not the tendon. There is an enormous difference between the two injuries. His course of treatment, like Hakuho's bicep injury, is rest. I see nothing wrong with his resuming training as long as it is done under medical supervision and there is absolutely no strain placed on the injured area. This injury occurred about a week and a half ago. The pectorailis major is a large muscle and Takekeisho is a very large human being, so an injury involving it is expected to visibly look pretty bad after such a short period of time. Two things are certain. The first is that the medical advice he's receiving is quite sound, allowing time to heal the injury and having him do nothing which would aggravate it. The second is that this injury will take quite a while to heal and he will be kyujo for Kyushu--and possibly for Tokyo in January as well. 

Could you kindly explain the significance/meaning of the bicep bruising? Doctor Google suggests "Proximal arm ecchymosis is indicative of tendon rupture at humeral insertion."  Torn off the bone. If that diagnosis is correct, we are looking at the Kisenosato injury again. And this is one of those situations where bro-science is contraindicated.

https://www.orthobullets.com/sports/3069/pectoralis-major-rupture

Edited October 2, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[Gabriel 13]

6 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Could you kindly explain the significance/meaning of the bicep bruising? Doctor Google suggests "Proximal arm ecchymosis is indicative of tendon rupture at humeral insertion."  Torn off the bone. If that diagnosis is correct, we are looking at the Kisenosato injury again. And this is one of those situations where bro-science is contraindicated.

https://www.orthobullets.com/sports/3069/pectoralis-major-rupture

I had a injury very similar to this a few years ago. You never get fully recovered. You strengh is quite lower than usual. Moreover, your body works descompensated, and this increases a lot the danger of injuries. In my humble opinion the dettached tendon could work fine with properly surgery  if it is worth taken, but when you tear the muscle belly, there is no way you can go back to your standards of strengh, and the pectoral is crucial in the sumo Takakeisho displays. Hakuho is quite more vulnerable since he damaged his biceps and that is a minor injury compared with the pec. Thanks for the warning about the report square. Un saludo desde España and my best wishes to Takakeisho. I have a Hedgegod named as him.

[Akinomaki 40,593]

10 hours ago, sekitori said:

He will return to action much sooner and should be in pretty good condition when he does. 

Takakeisho plans to join the jungyo on the 16th http://hochi.news/articles/20191002-OHT1T50063.html

[Churaumi 743]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Takakeisho plans to join the jungyo on the 16th http://hochi.news/articles/20191002-OHT1T50063.html

We need a facepalm emoji...unless he’s just going to do fan service.

[sekitori 492]

17 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Could you kindly explain the significance/meaning of the bicep bruising? Doctor Google suggests "Proximal arm ecchymosis is indicative of tendon rupture at humeral insertion."  Torn off the bone. If that diagnosis is correct, we are looking at the Kisenosato injury again. And this is one of those situations where bro-science is contraindicated.

https://www.orthobullets.com/sports/3069/pectoralis-major-rupture

 

The muscle involved in Takakeisho's injury was  prmarily the pectoralis major. There was no mention of bicep bruising.

Proximal refers to being near the point of attachment. In this case, Dr. Google  seems to be  talking about bleeding caused by the rupture of a tendon where the muscle attaches to the bone. Since Takakeisho's injury was diagnosed as a tear in the belly of the muscle itself without the tendon being involved, the ecchymosis was due to that and not the much more serious injury of Kisenosato. If he had indeed torn the the tendon at the top of his pectoralis muscle, the progress report following the injury would not come from his comments as he returned to training (at least somewhat). It instead would have come from surgeons who operated on the injury. 

I agree that words on Google or the rest of the Internet for that matter can be confusing. In the phrase "proximal arm ecchymosis", only the word "ecchymosis" is correct in this case. There was a lot of internal bleeding, but the photo shows that most of it is in the lower chest area. There seems to be very little in the arm and areas where the tendon is located. Therefore, "proximal" really doesn't describe this injury. It can best be explained as being distal to (away from) the attachment. 

Hakuho and Takakeisho were both very fortunate that their injuries only involved torn muscle tissue, not the tendons attaching them. They avoided surgery which may not have been completely successful.  Kisenosato was not so lucky. For some reason,  no surgery was done to repair his torn tendon and he had absolutely no chance of recovery.

Edited October 2, 2019 by sekitori

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

1 hour ago, sekitori said:

The muscle involved in Takakeisho's injury was  prmarily the pectoralis major. There was no mention of bicep bruising.

Only the prima facie evidence in the photo.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,274]

2 hours ago, sekitori said:

 

The muscle involved in Takakeisho's injury was  prmarily the pectoralis major. There was no mention of bicep bruising.

Proximal refers to being near the point of attachment. In this case, Dr. Google  seems to be  talking about bleeding caused by the rupture of a tendon where the muscle attaches to the bone. Since Takakeisho's injury was diagnosed as a tear in the belly of the muscle itself without the tendon being involved, the ecchymosis was due to that and not the much more serious injury of Kisenosato. If he had indeed torn the the tendon at the top of his pectoralis muscle, the progress report following the injury would not come from his comments as he returned to training (at least somewhat). It instead would have come from surgeons who operated on the injury. 

I agree that words on Google or the rest of the Internet for that matter can be confusing. In the phrase "proximal arm ecchymosis", only the word "ecchymosis" is correct in this case. There was a lot of internal bleeding, but the photo shows that most of it is in the lower chest area. There seems to be very little in the arm and areas where the tendon is located. Therefore, "proximal" really doesn't describe this injury. It can best be explained as being distal to (away from) the attachment. 

Hakuho and Takakeisho were both very fortunate that their injuries only involved torn muscle tissue, not the tendons attaching them. They avoided surgery which may not have been completely successful.  Kisenosato was not so lucky. For some reason,  no surgery was done to repair his torn tendon and he had absolutely no chance of recovery.

His inner arm is quite bruised.

 

I get what you are saying, the main injury seems to be a muscle body tear, but that doesn't mean other parts haven't been damaged. There even is some brusing on the right side of the sternum. When the muscle goes its going to release a lot of energy and put sudden forces on other parts. Also, it happened on the tachiai-liftoff so he ended up using it some even after the injury (it seems it tore on the rise up action so he impacted mitakeumi already injured). I know he's back training already but these guys have insane pain tolerances - things that make them wince would leave normal people on the floor.

I'm not clamoring for surgery or even changes to fighting style - its just what it is and life is unfair sometimes.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

33 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

. Also, it happened on the tachiai-liftoff so he ended up using it some even after the injury (it seems it tore on the rise up action so he impacted mitakeumi already injured).

That's ridiculous. Not a single rikishi pushes off the dohyo with their hands hard enough to tear a pec. If that were so, simple push-up exercises would be injuring millions of people. They touch both hands down, but all the drive is with the legs. Probably something gets lost in translation, but tachiai means initial meeting or clash. He was injured upon the initial clash and thrust.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[sekitori 492]

Thanks for the photos. The previous one didn't show the full extent of his injuries, especiallly how badly his arm was bruised. Even so, the diagnosis remains muscle injury with no damage to the tendon. If there was, I doubt that he would have the mobility to raise his left arm to the same approximate level as his right. In addition, he would presently be recovering from surgery, not working out on a dohyo.

As for being back in training, I'm sure it's very mild. Probably  the only reason he's doing it is to remain somewhat active. I'm certain that if he did anything to make his situation even slightly worse, his medical advisors would put a stop to it. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,274]

1 hour ago, sekitori said:

Thanks for the photos. The previous one didn't show the full extent of his injuries, especiallly how badly his arm was bruised. Even so, the diagnosis remains muscle injury with no damage to the tendon. If there was, I doubt that he would have the mobility to raise his left arm to the same approximate level as his right. In addition, he would presently be recovering from surgery, not working out on a dohyo.

As for being back in training, I'm sure it's very mild. Probably  the only reason he's doing it is to remain somewhat active. I'm certain that if he did anything to make his situation even slightly worse, his medical advisors would put a stop to it. 

I'm not sure why you are so sure he'd have surgery if it was bad when Kisenosato didn't...

[sekitori 492]

43 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I'm not sure why you are so sure he'd have surgery if it was bad when Kisenosato didn't...

It the tendon is ruptured, surgery is the only treatment that could return  the muscle  to reasonably normal function. Takakeisho's tendon was not involved, so surgical treatment is not required. Kisenosato's tendon was ruptured yet for some reason, the injury was allowed to heal without surgical repair. Because proper treatment was avoided, the muscle was permanently weakened. Since he was a yokozuna, he could take as long as necessary to recuperate from surgery without any loss of rank.  I have no idea (along with many others) why Kisensato's advisors and maybe Kisenosato himself  made such a senseless and harmful decision.

Edited October 3, 2019 by sekitori

[Rainoyama 1,157]

The bruising already looks a bit better left picture is from two days ago, the right one from today. Takakeisho has less trouble moving his arm than before apparently.

 

[Gabriel 13]

8 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

His inner arm is quite bruised.

 

I get what you are saying, the main injury seems to be a muscle body tear, but that doesn't mean other parts haven't been damaged. There even is some brusing on the right side of the sternum. When the muscle goes its going to release a lot of energy and put sudden forces on other parts. Also, it happened on the tachiai-liftoff so he ended up using it some even after the injury (it seems it tore on the rise up action so he impacted mitakeumi already injured). I know he's back training already but these guys have insane pain tolerances - things that make them wince would leave normal people on the floor.

I'm not clamoring for surgery or even changes to fighting style - its just what it is and life is unfair sometimes.

No, he broke his pec in the final, trying to push back Mitakeumi from the border. You can clearly see the "snap" there. You can do nothing with a broken pec. What it is possible is that Takakeisho notice the pec was numb or feel a prick, wht it is impossible that his pec broke in the Taichai and he can follow on the fight, just impossible. Look when he is in the border pushing, yoy visually notice, even behind that coat of fat that the pec breaks apart.

[Akinomaki 40,593]

8 hours ago, sekitori said:

As for being back in training, I'm sure it's very mild. Probably  the only reason he's doing it is to remain somewhat active. I'm certain that if he did anything to make his situation even slightly worse, his medical advisors would put a stop to it. 

I doubt that there is a medical advisor around at asageiko -  he takes part in it, using his lower body, but also already with something like this

o

the only one to stop him from joining the jungyo would be the oyakata

o o

[robnplunder 975]

I ... do .... not ... want ... to .... see ... the ...  pictures of a man who is wearing a tattoo of the world map .

Seriously, Takakeisho can use more rest just to be cautious.    Look what a basho and a half of kyujo almost did for him.   

[Sumo_da 34]

So tired of the speculation... I understand that people want to know what's going on but even if someone had a medical degree and was expert on muscle injuries I wouldn't 100% trust their diagnosis just by looking at a couple of pictures on twitter. Time will tell if he can fully regain his power, for the time being we can only wait and hope he and his oyakata make the right decisions.

[Churaumi 743]

Baseless speculation is what we do here between tournaments.

[sekitori 492]

12 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

I doubt that there is a medical advisor around at asageiko -  he takes part in it, using his lower body, but also already with something like this

o

the only one to stop him from joining the jungyo would be the oyakata

o o

I can understand how oyakatas can control the lives of their rikishis. But I cannot understand how their medical treatment is also left pretty much up to them. The explanation probably is , "That's the way it always has been done". I believe that in the case of severe injury, sound medical advice should be given to both the rikishi and his advisors.  Whether they care to do anything with such advice is another matter. 

I also believe that medical  supervision should be present for rikishis with such injuries during training.  Rikishis are strong-willed people who sometimes may do things that could hinder the healing process. Having a physical therapist  or someone with similar knowledge present could help to direct their recovery.

Wouldn't it have been wonderful  if Kisenosato received proper medical attention and then had an expert guide his recovery? If that was the case, he possibly would still be Yokozuna Kisenosato instead of Araiso Oyakata. 

 

[Kuroyama 715]

13 minutes ago, sekitori said:

The explanation probably is , "That's the way it always has been done". 

Yeah, well beating deshi with a stick until they bled used to be the way it has always been done too. They're progressive enough to institute instant replays in judging well before many other, more modern sports, but choose to be conservative about the dumbest things.

But there's no changing anything short of a public outcry, I'm afraid.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Kuroyama

[Gabriel 13]

On 30/08/2019 at 17:08, Thundersnow said:

This is true, but for knee and spinal injuries the risk of losing one's entire sumo career is significant if returning too quickly. Ura is but the most recent example. Takakeisho may be the strongest candidate for an eventual Yokozuna spot among the current sanyaku, but not if he exacerbates an existing injury that takes him out permanently. I don't know the details of his status, of course, I just think keeping the Ozeki status is not as important as having a full recovery. As he said himself, he did it once, he can do it again.

paradoxically, what can take his career down is the pec injury, not the knee one.

[Gabriel 13]

On 03/10/2019 at 15:39, Sumo_da said:

So tired of the speculation... I understand that people want to know what's going on but even if someone had a medical degree and was expert on muscle injuries I wouldn't 100% trust their diagnosis just by looking at a couple of pictures on twitter. Time will tell if he can fully regain his power, for the time being we can only wait and hope he and his oyakata make the right decisions.

It will be Impossible for him to regain all his power because he is going to lose a lot of mass in the pec and that mass is not goint to return. Hacing a look at the bleeding, one can imagine te size of the tear. This injury especially prevents you from pushing hard, what seems to be Takakeisho main power.

[sekitori 492]

3 hours ago, Gabriel said:

It will be Impossible for him to regain all his power because he is going to lose a lot of mass in the pec and that mass is not goint to return. 

There was a comment earlier about baseless speculation. I consider this to be a prime example of that. Where did you get that information? If you have specific knowledge that will back up your statement, please let us know.

Edited October 4, 2019 by sekitori