2019 Aki Basho Discussion (spoiler alert!)

[lackmaker 434]

51 minutes ago, Houmanumi said:

 

I'm actually really high on Tomokaze, and see him as a future ozeki at least.

But, I'm a newer fan, he's a newer rikisihi, what the hell do I know?

That said I'm keeping this for bragging rights when he makes ozeki in 2020. 

Do remind us in a year's time. Even if he is "only" a sanyaku regular by then.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

3 hours ago, Morty said:

I have wondered if the increased weight carried by rikishi these days is the reason there is more oshi, because it is easier to use that weight offensively by whacking people than it is by going to the belt? And the extra weight makes it harder to do the range of offensive throws required by yotsu sumo? This is purely speculation on my part, I don't know the answer but it seems that guys get above a certain weight and they get slow and clumsy. It also seems to me that the extra weight carried now by all rikishi is a direct result of trying to compete with the very successful eastern European (and Hawaiian before them) super heavy weights. So rikishi put on more weight to be competitive and the natural result is that more of the heavy guys do oshi, because it easier to do that when you are really heavy? Anyone with more inside knowledge think this is legit, or am I just talking pants?

That’s a solid argument, though of course one can point to plenty of big guys with a good yotsu game to *disprove* the point that weight is necessarily detrimental to belt skills and  results in slowness and clumsiness. 

[since_94 650]

9 hours ago, robnplunder said:

"Beautiful sumo" is a oxymoron.  Exciting, yes.  Ballet it ain't.   But I see the quality of sumo has took a nose dive since the days of four Yokozuna.  After Hak and Kak retires, it will be like watching replacement MLB/NFL for those who are old enough to witness the tragedy, travesty, mediocrity, ....  

For ballet sumo, check Tomokaze’s beautiful victory on day 8. That’s what I’m talking about.

[Midoriyama 35]

Tomokaze is still without a makekoshi in his career... and I would say on his way to another KK. 

Today was a mega important win for Takakeisho, really don´t wanna jinx him but he has only Goeido, Tochinoshin and Abi to go from sanyaku. Tamawashi tomorrow and possibly Meisei, Okinoumi and Shodai... (just a guess) 

so given his current form (still yet to lose a "normal bout" ) and remaining schedule I think he is well on his way to 10 wins 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Midoriyama

[Akinomaki 40,097]

First nakabi kachikoshi for Okinoumi http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2019091500409&g=spo

The last maegashira as sole undefeated leader on day 8 was Kyokushuzan Aki 2004 http://this.kiji.is/545904742442714209

Tamawashi with his 2nd this basho has his 12th and the most ever fusensho in makuuchi, 2nd with 11 is Dewanishiki   http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASM9H36JGM9HUTQP00H.html

[Rainoyama 1,157]

Some Nakabi stories from Nikkan, starting with sole leader and ubeaten Okinoumi.

Okinoumi beat M11 Onosho today, an opponent he had trouble with in the past (2-5 before today) " I was focussed and I just hit him head on without thinking about sumo. There's nothing to think about, it's just a matter of being focussed every day and take one day at a time. I'm in that position just because I did everything the way I wanted to. I've been winning from day 1, it's a rare opportunity that I want to treasure. I'm not doing anything different that usual though, but the fact I'm winning is big"  he reflected after the win.

Former Yokozuna and NHK pundit was careful regarding Okinoumi's chances to get the yusho "Perhaps, perhaps we'll see"

Okinoumi's master and head of the Kyokai Hakkaku was just as careful "It's still early isn't it ? The most difficult part is only starting now. The first goal is to get double digits. But it's true that if one's intention is not to aim for the yusho then there's no point to do sumo"

Okinoumi himself agrees with his Oyakata, when asked about the yuho he answered "From day one everybody's aiming to get the yusho. It's completely obvious"

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909150000957.html

[Philioyamfugi 378]

Takakeishou looked like himself today...fingers crossed for the 10 ... Yusho? Why not ...

 

[Rainoyama 1,157]

The next story is on 6-2 Asanoyama who's been impressive so far to say the least...

Asanoyama beat Bulgarian giant Aoiyama today and got a 4th consecutive win. Aoiyama is struggling this basho but even injured and unable to go forward,  his hatakikomi and his surprising agility at the edge are dangerous traps to opponents not careful enough. Asanoyama was careful though, he  didn't start the bout really well but as often this basho managed to come back into the match and get the win. "My tachi-ai was not great but I started to thrust and Aoiyama started to pull. I'm happy that I could attack relentlessly" reflected the Toyama native

Asanoyama had his first taste of jo-i last basho and finished "only" 7-8. He already looks different this basho, we can see he's matured and improved thanks to that experience already. His six wins so far include a kinboshi against Kakuryu, the two ozeki scalps and a win against Sekiwake Mitakeumi on day 1 but he's staying humble and down to earth.  "More than the number of wins what matters is focussing on doing forward sumo"

Asanoyama remains cool headed even when asked about the possibility of getting a second yusho "I'm not thinking about the past. For now I'm just trying to keep up with Okinoumi-zeki the leader of the race" https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909150001019.html

[Asashosakari 19,019]

16 hours ago, since_94 said:

So disappointing. But as the auto translator notes, it’s because:

 

Tsuru Ryu was distributing Venus for three consecutive days

 

 

I guess when you’re distributing Venus so often, it can start to become rather embarrassing.

Sanspo's headline on the Tomokaze kinboshi via Google Translate was even more pithy:

Tofu, Venus of tears! Retired brother, “I was finally able to sumo”

Also, a slightly disturbing description of Yoshikaze's immediate future:

it is also the “first job” as the parent who attacked the elderly “Nakamura”.

Hopefully not something for the anti-violence committee.

[Asashosakari 19,019]

12 hours ago, Morty said:

I have wondered if the increased weight carried by rikishi these days is the reason there is more oshi, because it is easier to use that weight offensively by whacking people than it is by going to the belt? And the extra weight makes it harder to do the range of offensive throws required by yotsu sumo? This is purely speculation on my part, I don't know the answer but it seems that guys get above a certain weight and they get slow and clumsy. It also seems to me that the extra weight carried now by all rikishi is a direct result of trying to compete with the very successful eastern European (and Hawaiian before them) super heavy weights. So rikishi put on more weight to be competitive and the natural result is that more of the heavy guys do oshi, because it easier to do that when you are really heavy? Anyone with more inside knowledge think this is legit, or am I just talking pants?

I dunno. Kotoshogiku and Kisenosato aren't/weren't exactly lightweights, and they did their particular brands of yotsu-zumo just fine. The Hawaiian influence has been charged as responsible for increasing weights plenty of times, and I'm of that opinion as well, but we're talking 20-30 years ago with that effect by now, so I find it difficult to reconcile that with the still ongoing (if slowed down) trend towards higher weights. Conversely, people said the large-scale influx of Mongolians into sumo would see things drift back toward leaner rikishi with more mobility, but nothing like that has happened even though the Mongolians were even more influential rankings-wise than the Hawaiians ever managed. (In fact, we've been seeing the opposite with the emergence of guys like Terunofuji and Mitoryu...)

Anyway, my pet theory about why oshi-zumo has been on the rise for the last two to three decades or so is that it's related to the increasingly professional-styled amateur levels of sumo. A lot of the future big-name pros are starting to do sumo competitively very early in their lives these days, and things being what they are, the reasons they're future big-name pros usually include them being much, much bigger than their age contemporaries. I have a feeling when you're a kid weighing 60 kg at age whatever and all your opponents are at 45 (and often a full head shorter, to boot), the first instinct is usually to just push them out / thrust them down with your superior strength and not bother getting involved in any yotsu shenanigans. And since even their youth coaches want to win, they coach what's easy to win with rather than what might be a more future-proof style.

I don't have any proof whatsoever, but I suspect things were rather different when the majority of talented ozumo entrants had only limited (or no) competitive experience rather than a decade-plus, and they had one coach (their shisho) who got to mold their sumo from the ground up and with an eye on their entire future career, rather than just the next three or four years (the way middle school, high school and college coaches do).

Edited September 15, 2019 by Asashosakari

[Yamanashi 3,779]

This is totally off the top of my head, so flame away, but in my (incredibly brief) experience with sumo in manga and anime, oshi-zumo seems to be the equivalent of the home run in baseball.  Some guy gets righteously torqued up and bashes his opponent out of the ring.  When I see this (complete with effects), it reminds me of Dragon Ball Z.

Maybe kids who get their inspiration from this (when they dream of being a badass Yokozuna) want to become pusher/thrusters when they start Sumo.

[Tochinofuji 377]

13 hours ago, Morty said:

I have wondered if the increased weight carried by rikishi these days is the reason there is more oshi, because it is easier to use that weight offensively by whacking people than it is by going to the belt? And the extra weight makes it harder to do the range of offensive throws required by yotsu sumo? This is purely speculation on my part, I don't know the answer but it seems that guys get above a certain weight and they get slow and clumsy. It also seems to me that the extra weight carried now by all rikishi is a direct result of trying to compete with the very successful eastern European (and Hawaiian before them) super heavy weights. So rikishi put on more weight to be competitive and the natural result is that more of the heavy guys do oshi, because it easier to do that when you are really heavy? Anyone with more inside knowledge think this is legit, or am I just talking pants?

Interesting, I'd actually think the opposite. To me, for excellent yotsu sumo someone like Kitanoumi comes to mind, who is hardly a lightweight.  Once you've locked into a yotsu position, it's hard for a lighter rikishi to generate forward momentum, as they've essentially been locked into a standstill. Wrapping someone up and using your weight advantage to walk them out seems amuch more predictable to win than staying disconnected from your opponent while moving forward and thrusting, as that gives your opponent much more maneuverability. Extreme light weights like Enho stay disconnected and then dart under and in to try to get into a position where they can move a heavier opponent. But if you picture them going straight in, seiseidodo style, they'd never overcome the weight disadvantage. 

Interesting to read a very different take, and many seem to agree with you, so I may well be completely off in my take on things! 

[Kaninoyama 1,713]

11 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

 

I'm actually really high on Tomokaze, and see him as a future ozeki at least.

But, I'm a newer fan, he's a newer rikisihi, what the hell do I know?

That said I'm keeping this for bragging rights when he makes ozeki in 2020. 

The question is: can he hatakikomi his way all the way to Yokozuna?

[ALAKTORN 346]

45 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

Interesting, I'd actually think the opposite. To me, for excellent yotsu sumo someone like Kitanoumi comes to mind, who is hardly a lightweight.  Once you've locked into a yotsu position, it's hard for a lighter rikishi to generate forward momentum, as they've essentially been locked into a standstill. Wrapping someone up and using your weight advantage to walk them out seems amuch more predictable to win than staying disconnected from your opponent while moving forward and thrusting, as that gives your opponent much more maneuverability. Extreme light weights like Enho stay disconnected and then dart under and in to try to get into a position where they can move a heavier opponent. But if you picture them going straight in, seiseidodo style, they'd never overcome the weight disadvantage. 

Interesting to read a very different take, and many seem to agree with you, so I may well be completely off in my take on things! 

I think the heavy yotsu specialists can typically just win by yorikiri, while the lighter ones (Harumafuji, Chiyonofuji, maybe could consider Hakuhō lighter too?) are very good at nage. Though there’s also Tochinoshin as a light weight yorikiri-er… Maybe weight doesn’t affect yotsu ability that much, but it certainly does oshi– you can’t be an oshi specialist without weight on you. Yeah I know Abi exists but I don’t think he’s that great of a rikishi, maybe he could be a point if he ever makes ōzeki at least.

[Tochinofuji 377]

11 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

I think the heavy yotsu specialists can typically just win by yorikiri, while the lighter ones (Harumafuji, Chiyonofuji, maybe could consider Hakuhō lighter too?) are very good at nage. Though there’s also Tochinoshin as a light weight yorikiri-er… Maybe weight doesn’t affect yotsu ability that much, but it certainly does oshi– you can’t be an oshi specialist without weight on you. Yeah I know Abi exists but I don’t think he’s that great of a rikishi, maybe he could be a point if he ever makes ōzeki at least.

I think you're likely right. Which I suppose means, by default, weight as a rikishi is a good thing, at least to a point, regardless of style. 

[robnplunder 975]

14 hours ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

Enho didn't put both hands down either :O
(just wanted to mention that for the sake of completeness, not in order to start a flame war or something)

They are not calling it in this basho and no one is putting their hands down, well, practically no one.

[Morty 1,483]

2 hours ago, ALAKTORN said:

I think the heavy yotsu specialists can typically just win by yorikiri, while the lighter ones (Harumafuji, Chiyonofuji, maybe could consider Hakuhō lighter too?) are very good at nage. Though there’s also Tochinoshin as a light weight yorikiri-er… Maybe weight doesn’t affect yotsu ability that much, but it certainly does oshi– you can’t be an oshi specialist without weight on you. Yeah I know Abi exists but I don’t think he’s that great of a rikishi, maybe he could be a point if he ever makes ōzeki at least.

This is kind of what I was kind of thinking of - the heavier you get the less mobile you get and the harder it is to do all the technical stuff, but it remains easy to just push and go forward.

Thanks to everyone who has replied, it has been interesting to hear all the different ideas. I have two further takes on this - again they are just speculation and probably wrong:

First, the case of Endo maybe gives a clue as to why oshi is prevalent. He came into sumo as a pure yotsu wrestler, and has had to learn how to do oshi, because once he got to the top level he got whacked in the head a lot by the really good oshi guys, while trying to get on the belt and as a result lost a lot. I have always thought he didn't like getting hit in the head ("not my beautiful face!"), but the basic fact is that he got hit in the head while trying to get on the belt. So going against an effective oshi opponent made it harder for him to get on the belt in the first place. It is only now that he has become proficient at oshi that he is starting to move to that next level - he has become a more rounded rikishi by adding oshi to his arsenal, in a way that makes his yotsu a more effective weapon. I have often thought of how daunting it must be to try and get inside and grab the belt of a guy as enormous and skilled as Aoiyama or Tamawashi while they are whacking you upside the head repeatedly. Is this also why pulling techniques have become more prevalent, because they are the obvious go-to for yotsu wrestlers against oshi guys when they can't get to the belt? The point here is that any up and comer who is a yotsu specialist and who isn't Ichinojo/Teronofuji/Tochinoshin size is going to get belted around by the top oshi guys once they get to the top level until they can learn to get inside effectively. 

Second is the influence of Hakuho, who is the absolute yotsu master. I have seen it happen in other sports where you have a guy who is so good at something that they effectively kill it for everyone else for a generation because no-one else can match them at it so they stop trying. I know that sounds counter-intuitive because you would think that people would try to emulate the excellence, but I can think of numerous examples - Shane Warne and leg spin bowling in cricket jumps immediately to mind. 

I think Asashosakari is onto something though - oshi is easier than yotsu when you are a big kid and your coaches at school are only interested in you winning...

[Jakusotsu 5,876]

John Gunning once told me "yotsu happens when something goes wrong with your sumo".

Edit - to clarify: That was years ago when he was still training with amateur kids.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Jakusotsu

[Kaninoyama 1,713]

Aminishiki joins Mainoumi in the announcer's chair as a commentator for today's NHK broadcast. 

First interesting tidbit: he plans to diet down below is makuuchi debut weight of 117 kilos.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Kaninoyama

[Taikoubana 143]

Wow. Could've sworn Azumaryu's knee touched before Enho's butt hit the ground. Seriously looks that way from every angle, unless I'm missing something.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Enho was kinda robbed of yet another amazing gravity defying performance. 

Whoever is in charge of checking the video replays did a poor job. 

From all angles, I saw Enho still hovering above the clay, while Azumaryu's knee, elbow and hand touched down first. 

At least a torinaoshi - like in the famous Asashoryu match - would have been the much better call. 

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Enho robbed blind by idiotic judging there.

[Rocks 1,807]

Back of Enho's heel touched down before he lifted it up.  You can get away with rolling your toes over or the side of the foot in a push but they won't give that to you when you aren't the aggressor. he was being pushed down. 

[Rocks 1,807]

What I want to know is what happened with Tsugarisho and Takagenji? It's not like only  Tsgarisho was the only one to stop. They both stopped. It should have been a matta. 

[Jakusotsu 5,876]

11 minutes ago, Rocks said:

It should have been a matta. 

Would have never happened on Konosuke's watch.