2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

[dingo 1,266]

What in the world was Shodai thinking in his bout... Extremely sloppy tachiai and it all went downhill from there. Guess he just underestimated his opponent and took him way too lightly, whereas Kotoshogiku takes every bout seriously. 

[Philioyamfugi 378]

Hakahou will just waltz away with the cup if nobody steps up... C'mon guys ! 

[Kaminariyuki 499]

2 minutes ago, Philioyamfugi said:

Hakahou will just waltz away with the cup if nobody steps up... C'mon guys ! 

Enho's coming for him. He already knows all of Hakuho's moves.

Of course, that works the other way around, too...

[Kaminariyuki 499]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

He’s a future Yokozuna once the old guard retire. 

Certainly looks like a contender to me. There are five or six younger rikishi who look like they will be coaxing the old guard out the door before long. But the old boys may have a few basho left inn them. I find myself pulling for Kotoshogiku in nearly every match these days.

[robnplunder 975]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

 

The mysterious thing is that during the bout, there didn't seem to be any major contact from Takarafuji on that part of Tochinoshin's body, even at the tachiai.  It was a mawashi battle from start to finish.  That leads me to conclude that Tochinoshin snapped a rib through sheer muscular exertion in the execution of his winning technique: kubihineri.  Is that even possible?!!!

I think it is possible.   I had a few of those rib injuries while playing contact sports (soccer, e.g) and don't remember the exact moment when it happened.  Too bad for Tochinoshin.   

[Sue 508]

Wow, was Next Ozeki Shodai really the last undefeated Makuuchi rikishi before Previous Ozeki Kotoshogiku defeated him?

[Kaminariyuki 499]

7 minutes ago, Sue said:

Wow, was Next Ozeki Shodai really the last undefeated Makuuchi rikishi before Previous Ozeki Kotoshogiku defeated him?

Hai, so desu yo! Now it's a large group tied for first place, to many to bother counting.

[Benihana 1,929]

3 hours ago, Dwale said:

You have to hand it to Takarafuji, 32 years old and still solid as a rock. He's never amazing, he's got zero flash, but he's out there doing his thing basho after basho. Also, as others have mentioned, he's stronger than he looks. What a workhorse. But I mean that in a good way.

Agree. Of the big guys he seems like the one with the best muscle/fat-ratio, by far. I actually like seing him from behind in a bout, amazing thighs and butt. Well defined muscles and almost no fat-wiggle.

[Sumo_da 34]

Mitakeumi really annoys me... you always start rooting for this guy to make Ozeki and then he just crumbles. I don't think he will ever achieve greatness even if he has the skills for Ozeki. He doesn't have the mentality or mindset to take his career to the next level.

[Giku Squad 10]

35 minutes ago, Sumo_da said:

Mitakeumi really annoys me... you always start rooting for this guy to make Ozeki and then he just crumbles. I don't think he will ever achieve greatness even if he has the skills for Ozeki. He doesn't have the mentality or mindset to take his career to the next level.

It would help if he'd actually practice instead of waiting until the last minute..

[Gabriel 13]

What happens to Gagamaru? He seems to be sick.

[Gospodin 191]

40 minutes ago, Giku Squad said:

It would help if he'd actually practice instead of waiting until the last minute..

Is it really that he doesn´t practice as much as others, or is he just bad during practice ?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Gospodin
edited for clarification

[Dwale 419]

4 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 

That leads me to conclude that Tochinoshin snapped a rib through sheer muscular exertion in the execution of his winning technique: kubihineri.  Is that even possible?!!!

Yes. It has happened in other combat sports as well. I personally broke a rib just from a coughing fit when I had the flu one year.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

Asanoyama has a more complete game than many of the "all offense"  guys I like Takakeishou,  Hokotofuji, Abi, even OG Tamawashi. he might be able to go all the way. 

[Amamaniac 2,079]

1 hour ago, Sumo_da said:

Mitakeumi really annoys me... you always start rooting for this guy to make Ozeki and then he just crumbles. I don't think he will ever achieve greatness even if he has the skills for Ozeki. He doesn't have the mentality or mindset to take his career to the next level.

As you probably know, Mitakeumi has been in the sanyaku ranks for 16 straight tournaments, and is second on the all time list in that regard.  Perhaps he will surpass Wakanosato's record of 19 straight tournaments.  If, like Wakanosato, Mitakeumi never gets promoted to Ozeki, at least he will have a record to his name (as good or as embarrassing as that might be)...  But at least Mitakeumi has won two Top Division championships, so that's pretty significant.

[Akinomaki 40,661]

5 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

As you probably know, Mitakeumi has been in the sanyaku ranks for 16 straight tournaments, and is second on the all time list in that regard.  Perhaps he will surpass Wakanosato's record of 19 straight tournaments.  If, like Wakanosato, Mitakeumi never gets promoted to Ozeki, at least he will have a record to his name (as good or as embarrassing as that might be)...  But at least Mitakeumi has won two Top Division championships, so that's pretty significant.

If he keeps winning a tournament each year AND doesn't make it to ozeki, his place in history is secured.

[Akinomaki 40,661]

26 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

If he keeps winning a tournament each year AND doesn't make it to ozeki, his place in history is secured.

He has a record already: Mitakeumi is the only one to have 2 yusho at sekiwake - the illustrious list of the others who were not promoted to ozeki right away with a sekiwake yusho shows 4 later yokozuna, 2 ozeki and 2 who peaked at sekiwake: Hasegawa and - Tamawashi, who among them is the only one so far to have a makekoshi after his sekiwake yusho.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&form1_rank=s&form1_y=on&form2_rank=s

Edited November 14, 2019 by Akinomaki

[Eikokurai 3,437]

5 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

Certainly looks like a contender to me. There are five or six younger rikishi who look like they will be coaxing the old guard out the door before long. But the old boys may have a few basho left inn them. I find myself pulling for Kotoshogiku in nearly every match these days.

You’ll find it less stressful if you only do that for the bouts he’s actually competing in.

[Yubinhaad 11,728]

This is the 14th basho since 1958 in which there were no undefeated rikishi in Makuuchi after only 5 days; the last time this happened was the 2001 Aki basho.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

29 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

This is the 14th basho since 1958 in which there were no undefeated rikishi in Makuuchi after only 5 days; the last time this happened was the 2001 Aki basho.

Someone’s been reading Tachi-ai. 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

6 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

Enho's coming for him. He already knows all of Hakuho's moves.

Of course, that works the other way around, too...

Though the chances of it happening are slim, I was wondering a couple of days ago what Hakuho might do if he finds himself on course to meet Enho in a playoff. Obviously, his own desire to win another yusho would be strong, plus he has his sense of fair play, but he may also think that a yusho opportunity for his deshi is unlikely to come around too often and so be tempted to “step aside” by throwing a bout. He wouldn’t hand Enho a win directly by purposely losing a playoff – for one, it would be too obvious – but he might consider engineering a route for Enho by easing off against someone else near the end of the week two to give Enho some breathing space. Enho would still need to keep winning his own fights to take the title, so it wouldn’t truly count as fixing the result.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Yamanashi 3,871]

6 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

Enho's coming for him. He already knows all of Hakuho's moves.

Of course, that works the other way around, too...

"Son, I taught you everything you know ... but I didn't teach you everything I know."

[sekitori 492]

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 But at least Mitakeumi has won two Top Division championships, so that's pretty significant.

However, the yokozunas were kyujo in each of his yushos. That fact, in and of itself, made them less significant than they could have been. On the other hand, "a win is a win" no matter what the situation surrounding it is. Despite the fact that he didn't have to face his strongest competition, he stll did very well. There is no question that he deserved each yusho even though the quality of his opponents wasn't the best.

Edited November 15, 2019 by sekitori

[Eikokurai 3,437]

8 minutes ago, sekitori said:

However, the yokozunas were kyujo in each of his yushos. That fact, in and of itself, made them less significant than they could have been. On the other hand, "a win is a win" no matter what the situation surrounding it is. Despite the fact that he didn't have to face his strongest competition, he stll did very well. There is no question that he deserved each yusho even though  the quality of his opponents wasn't the best.

You can only beat who is in front of you. Besides, if we take the attitude that only tournaments won when better rikishi are present truly count, then logically we can dismiss most of Hakuho’s, since he’s won most of them against inferior competition, even when other Yokozuna were there. Of course, it would be silly to say “Well, he only had to beat sekiwakes and komusubis”.

Sometimes you’re just the best in the field and that’s how it is. 

 

*The only real exceptions to this are those rare occasions when a Maegashira wins having not faced any sanyaku ranks at all, which is one of the idiosyncrasies of the sumo yusho system. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Asashosakari 19,484]

On 13/11/2019 at 09:06, Akinomaki said:

I always have been in favor of that notion though. A basho in makuuchi should be worth at least as much as a yusho at one of the big 4 amateur tournaments.

To explain why I don't think it's sensible: For one thing, slapping the same label on similar-but-different things within the same realm is just needlessly confusing. Prime example from sumo: Takanohana and Musashimaru both had an "ichidai toshiyori". Without further clarification most people should probably not be expected to realize that one of them was a lifetime deal (until, well...) and the other one limited to 5 years. Plenty of fans have no idea about anything that goes on below makuuchi; expanding the scope of tsukedashi would be a real mess requiring frequent explaining.

And for another, I'd also hope any sort of revised treatment of injury absences would cover at minimum all sekitori and not just makuuchi, so that would rule out simply copy-pasting the current MsTd regulations for that purpose. You seem to agree with that by offering a rank (Ms1) that has no actual equivalent in MsTd.

I have argued in favour of fixed re-entry points before myself, something along the lines of "injured in sanyaku = J14-equivalent, injured as maegashira = Ms15, injured in juryo = Ms30 or Ms60", but that does have some serious edge case issues (K vs M1, M16 vs J1...), and additionally doesn't handle non-honbasho injuries well. Perhaps a better idea altogether would be something like this: Rikishi injured while sekitori-ranked drop down the banzuke as usual, but get to restart from the rank they held after their second full absence no matter how many more of them followed, with the restrictions that it can't be higher than bottom juryo (or indeed maybe Ms1 for practical reasons) and not lower than bottom makushita. For toriteki the same two-demotions rule could be used without any additional max/min limits.

That would retain some semblance of the normal banzuke workings, provide better rank-equivalent protection (should an injured M16 really receive the same ranking benefit as an M1, while an M1 gets treated much worse than a komusubi?), and also help to avoid clogging up certain banzuke areas with multiple returnees at the same time.

For somebody like Ura that would have meant Ms10. For Terunofuji it would have been Ms60 - although he almost certainly would have managed his career differently if such a rule was in place, and probably dropped out of competition early enough after his demotion from ozeki that he'd have been able to return at bottom juryo or very high in makushita.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Asashosakari