2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

[Katooshu 3,246]

Some bizarre comments on here about Enho. A purely reactive, stand up and take it tachiai is fairly common (as mentioned, even the GOAT does it sometimes), and he doesn't even do that most of the time anyway--he usually hops forward and low, and his game is mainly to get inside and either charge or throw---not to run around and avoid and hope for slippiotoshi's.

Sure enough, Rocks is the same poster who said Enho had no future in the sport when he turned pro, and upon reaching juryo in rapid time that he'd never KK as a sekitori. Weird ongoing disdain for the little guy 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Katooshu

[Rocks 1,809]

3 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

The difference is that Yutakayama and Enho both knew they would play the stay back game so both weren't expecting each other to come forward anyway while Mainoumi and Kyokudozan were defensively prepared and expecting somewhat of a forward encounter from each other. 

The difference is no matta was called. Mainoumi's opponent was allowed to use the same tactic. The difference is after that matta Enho charges and leaves early knowing he'll be called for a 2nd matta.  Expecting his opponent to now be resigned to HAVING to charge on the next as if he doesn't he may be called for a matta again. The result of which is they'll be called out onto the carpet and he'll chewed out for being hesitant against a much smaller guy. And we know this to be true. Konosuke flat out tells Yutakayama he called the first matta because he failed to sense they intended to collide. Certainly this can't be on Enho. If Enho was called for a matta every time he failed to intend to collide most of his matches would never start. The matta was called specifically because Yutakayama failed to charge.  People here are acting like there is some issue with this tactic or that I think it should be completely disallowed. I didn't. I suggested just the opposite.  Every rikishi facing Enho should do it. I do not have a problem with the tactic. I have a problem with Enho doing it constantly AND the gyoji's favoring him with matta calls on what is clearly a legitimate start to make his use of it effective.

Yutakayama finally stood up and said "Go ahead call all the mattas you want. I am not going to charge and place myself off balance so that my much smaller opponent can use that against me as he almost certainly can not beat me in any other way. If you won't make him engage I won't either. Go pound sand."

Somehow this became a "controversy"  or that it was somehow on Konosuke. Neither is true. Konosuke did nothing different than the gyoji's in  Enho's other matches.

Maybe next someone will start tssuparing the crap out of Enho's head  which somehow magically never seems to happen. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,274]

Somehow this became a controversy? Are there two people using your account?

[robnplunder 975]

32 minutes ago, Rocks said:

 

Yutakayama finally stood up and said "Go ahead call all the mattas you want. I am not going to charge and place myself off balance so that my much smaller opponent can use that against me as he almost certainly can not beat me in any other way. If you won't make him engage I won't either. Go pound sand."

Yutakayama used a good strategy to prevent Enho from charging in at Tachihai.  It will be interesting to see if others start copying it.   That could make Enho's life in ozumo harder.

[Philioyamfugi 378]

http://youtu.be/S9b8-fzcDso

Terunofuji vs. Shiba Day 8

 

Oops posted already but just a link...can't hurt

Edited November 17, 2019 by Philioyamfugi

[Joaoiyama 308]

The first tachi ai should not have been called a matta, now Tsurugisho is the one with a problematic tachi ai and i didn't see a word about it.

 

LEAVE ENHO ALONE 

[dada78641 884]

Pictured: Hakuho getting ready to enter the ring.

Trust me. He's right there.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

6 hours ago, Shatsume said:

I think he's looked very strong and grounded this basho, building on his last few performances, but I can't say I've noticed anything to say he has more in his toolbox than the others, he's just being more consistently solid (read; un-injured...) Which, to be honest, is something that is needed in the upper ranks at the moment. Let's hope he doesn't get injured too... 

I see him having better footwork, balance, agility and hand speed. He seems more able to rescue himself with little room to work with than either of the two bigger men and his tsuppari is faster. Of course, one can argue that Mitakeumi and Takakeisho have assets he doesn’t, such as greater power. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Eikokurai

[mt fuji 976]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

People here are acting like there is some issue with this tactic or that I think it should be completely disallowed. I didn't. I suggested just the opposite.  Every rikishi facing Enho should do it. I do not have a problem with the tactic. I have a problem with Enho doing it constantly AND the gyoji's favoring him with matta calls on what is clearly a legitimate start to make his use of it effective.

Maybe next someone will start tssuparing the crap out of Enho's head  which somehow magically never seems to happen. 

We get it, you don't like Enho

[Eikokurai 3,437]

7 hours ago, Dwale said:

Almost forgot to mention how cool it was to see Ishiura pull a Mainoumi move like that. Both small guys, but Ishiura isn't the same caliber of tactician that Mainoumi was, so it's nice to see him try something new in there. 

Yes, why aren’t more people excited about seeing the first mitokorozeme in 26 years?! Half the guys in sumo weren’t even alive the last time it occurred in Makuuchi.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Eikokurai

[mt fuji 976]

1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

Yes, why aren’t more people excited about seeing the first mitokorozeme in 26 years?! Alf the guys in sumo weren’t even alive the last time it occurred in Makuuchi.

I just came back to post about this! Mainoumi was the last one to pull it off in day 13 of Aki 1992.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 minutes ago, mt fuji said:

I just came back to post about this! Mainoumi was the last one to pull it off in day 13 of Aki 1992.

1993. He did it twice in Makuuchi, both at Aki one year apart. 

Correction: he officially did it twice. Some observers think his famous defeat of Akebono should have been called as mitokorozeme as well.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Gabriel 13]

Can someone explain to me why Tsurugisho has come so late to the first division. He looks pretty solid right now.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

21 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Yes, why aren’t more people excited about seeing the first mitokorozeme in 26 years?!

How's that for "more people"?

NHK's coverage (including English commentary) definitely gave it concerted attention.  By pure coincidence, NHK was already prepared to focus on all the uncommon kimarite seen in Top Division competition over the past year, and of course Mainoumi (the technique department store) was the guest commentator as well.  

And while Enho has been frequently described as the modern day Mainoumi, it was Enho's stablemate, Ishiura, who managed to execute this rare sumo technique, rather than Enho.  To the victor goes the glory.

[Rocks 1,809]

40 minutes ago, mt fuji said:

We get it, you don't like Enho

That isn't true at all. Enho seems like a very good guy. The other rikishi clearly like and enjoy having him around. I can appreciate his desire and work ethic to become competitive in a sport. Unfortunately for him he is not physically equipped to do so. To compare him to a Mainoumi, or even Ishiura and Terutsuyoshi, is ridiculous.

What I don't like is having to watch, basho after basho, the Kyokai's cynical manipulation of his schedule and the gyojis, and probably some rikishi too,  for PR purposes and to pacify the ego of a dai-yokouzna. To promote the idea you can be competitive in sumo despite being ill-equipped because larger, stronger kids are going into other sports for the most part and they still need people to do menial duties for low pay in the heya. To give the old ladies a cute little kid to root for. 

I can appreciate the frustration of a Yukatayama who had his career and inspirations set back by a year by injury saying "F this" when forced to find a way to deal with what amounts to a mascot. 

 

[Rocks 1,809]

50 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Yes, why aren’t more people excited about seeing the first mitokorozeme in 26 years?! Half the guys in sumo weren’t even alive the last time it occurred in Makuuchi.

It was amazing. I was stunned by it actually. Ishiura was having a very good match but at the bales I thought Nishikigi was going to whip him around and out yet somehow Ishiura got that leg hooked and pushed him over. Incredible. 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

That isn't true at all. Enho seems like a very good guy. The other rikishi clearly like and enjoy having him around. I can appreciate his desire and work ethic to become competitive in a sport. Unfortunately for him he is not physically equipped to do so. To compare him to a Mainoumi, or even Ishiura and Terutsuyoshi, is ridiculous.

What I don't like is having to watch, basho after basho, the Kyokai's cynical manipulation of his schedule and the gyojis, and probably some rikishi too,  for PR purposes and to pacify the ego of a dai-yokouzna. To promote the idea you can be competitive in sumo despite being ill-equipped because larger, stronger kids are going into other sports for the most part and they still need people to do menial duties for low pay in the heya. To give the old ladies a cute little kid to root for. 

I can appreciate the frustration of a Yukatayama who had his career and inspirations set back by a year by injury saying "F this" when forced to find a way to deal with what amounts to a mascot. 

 

You're going to have to explain why these comparisons are ridiculous, especially the Mainoumi one. The similarities are striking:

171cm v 169cm tall

97kg v 99kg (max weight at equivalent points in their careers)

5 basho v 6 basho to become a sekitori (and Mainoumi entered as makushita tsukedashi)

3 basho v 5 basho passing through Juryo

3 kachikoshi v 4 kachikoshi in Juryo

After 17 basho Mainoumi had reached M6e; Enho has reached M6w.

After 17 basho Mainoumi had two gino-sho; Enho has one.

Most common kimarite? Shitatenage for both.

And this is just the quantitative data. More expert observers than me, including Mainoumi himself, have made the comparison and consider it fair.

[mt fuji 976]

If you have some insider info about the intentions of the Kyokai, Rocks, please fill us in. But without any of that, it looks to me like there’s a young unusual but marketable prospect that they’re promoting. People like him because he’s a physical anomaly and he can still win. He can throw most people, he can win with leg trip techniques, he can win by yorikiri and oshidashi. And who cares who old ladies root for as long as they pay for tickets!

To reduce him or anyone else to a mascot is to make light of their career as a wrestler. And Enho even started from the bottom, unlike Yutakayama who had a Sandanme Tsukedashi.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

4 minutes ago, mt fuji said:

If you have some insider info about the intentions of the Kyokai, Rocks, please fill us in. But without any of that, it looks to me like there’s a young unusual but marketable prospect that they’re promoting. People like him because he’s a physical anomaly and he can still win. He can throw most people, he can win with leg trip techniques, he can win by yorikiri and oshidashi. And who cares who old ladies root for as long as they pay for tickets!

To reduce him or anyone else to a mascot is to make light of their career as a wrestler. And Enho even started from the bottom, unlike Yutakayama who had a Sandanme Tsukedashi.

Somewhat ironically, Yutakayama himself was given the "mascot" treatment on his entry to sumo. He and Asanoyama were (are) spoken about in terms of being the next great Japanese hopes who were destined to have a great rivalry. I have a sumo magazine pretty much all about them and they're stood side-by-side on the front cover. That's partly died down for Yutakayama now but Asanoyama continues to be celebrated in this way. It's almost as if sumo is a professional sport as well as a piece of cultural heritage, and therefore subject to same sort of storytelling that all sports have.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Rocks 1,809]

19 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

You're going to have to explain why these comparisons are ridiculous, especially the Mainoumi one. The similarities are striking:

171cm v 169cm tall

97kg v 99kg (max weight at equivalent points in their careers)

Well to begin  with Enho isn't 169cm. He's 166 at most as he's at least an inch shorter than Terutsoyushi who is listed at 169. Enho, despite being in the foreground and therefore should look taller than Terutsuyoshi, still appears shorter than him. 

 

As far as his weight I would be surprised if he's much over 90 KG, 200 lbs.  He sure the heck isn't 99, 220 lbs, given his height and that physique. 

As far as the rest the similarities are striking, almost too striking  I'd say. And I am not surprised with Mainoumi's attitude given who pays him to appear. You know who else you will hear praising Enho? Anyone with a kabu.  You know what else is striking? The comparison of Enho's upper body physique , or lack there of, in comparison to a Mainoumi, Ishiura or Terusuyoshi. 

[Gabriel 13]

4 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Well to begin  with Enho isn't 169cm. He's 166 at most as he's at least an inch shorter than Terutsoyushi who is listed at 169. Enho, despite being in the foreground and therefore should look taller than Terutsuyoshi, still appears shorter than him. 

 

As far as his weight I would be surprised if he's much over 90 KG, 200 lbs.  He sure the heck isn't 99, 220 lbs, given his height and that physique. 

As far as the rest the similarities are striking, almost too striking  I'd say. And I am not surprised with Mainoumi's attitude given who pays him to appear. You know who else you will hear praising Enho? Anyone with a kabu.  You know what else is striking? The comparison of Enho's upper body physique , or lack there of, in comparison to a Mainoumi, Ishiura or Terusuyoshi. 

He certainly seems to be under 98 kilograms, but, who know. Arent these men oficially measured¿?

[Eikokurai 3,437]

You know what, I'm going about this all wrong. Let's accept, purely for the sake of argument, that he's not like Mainoumi. So what? He's Enho. Why does he need to be like Mainoumi? He's made it to the cusp of the joi by being whoever or whatever he is. That's enough for me.

[Asashosakari 19,395]

8 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Some bizarre comments on here about Enho. A purely reactive, stand up and take it tachiai is fairly common (as mentioned, even the GOAT does it sometimes), and he doesn't even do that most of the time anyway--he usually hops forward and low, and his game is mainly to get inside and either charge or throw---not to run around and avoid and hope for slippiotoshi's.

Sure enough, Rocks is the same poster who said Enho had no future in the sport when he turned pro, and upon reaching juryo in rapid time that he'd never KK as a sekitori. Weird ongoing disdain for the little guy 

It's become a face-saving exercise because of those ill-advised earlier comments by now, I reckon. The alternative possibility that Rocks really is this upset and agitated over Enho's continued presence in Ozumo is too depressing to think about. 

[Rocks 1,809]

21 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It's become a face-saving exercise because of those ill-advised earlier comments by now, I reckon. The alternative possibility that Rocks really is this upset and agitated over Enho's continued presence in Ozumo is too depressing to think about. 

You'd be wrong reckoning that. Thought it from the start and still do. Sorry to depress you. 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Sumo is a meritocracy. A rikishi gets promoted on the basis of his results. If Enho was at M6 as a result of nepotism or cronyism or because he won the popular vote in a TV talent show, it might be fair to suggest he has no place in the sport, but he isn’t. He has won enough bouts to move up the banzuke* and therefore meets the definition of “deserving” his place. I don’t know what else he can do to assuage his detractor’s distaste for him (not that he remotely gives a damn, I’m sure).

 

*And no, he didn’t benefit from a schedule rigged in his favour. He’s fought the schedules his rank should fight.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Eikokurai