2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

[lackmaker 437]

5 hours ago, serge_gva said:

...What is exactly cricket?

Well it isn't cricket to give your opponent an extra unnecessary push once they are out of the dohyo.

[maorencze 144]

2 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

Well it isn't cricket to give your opponent an extra unnecessary push once they are out of the dohyo.

That's natural, they have no dohyo!

[Eikokurai 3,437]

1 minute ago, maorencze said:

That's natural, they have no dohyo!

They have a round playing area, it’s just a bit bigger than 4.55m in diameter.

[maorencze 144]

1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

They have a round playing area, it’s just a bit bigger than 4.55m in diameter.

But it's not elevated and doesn't have weirdly dressed middle-aged guys sitting around instead of referees, so not the same...

[lackmaker 437]

Just now, maorencze said:

But it's not elevated and doesn't have weirdly dressed middle-aged guys sitting around instead of referees, so not the same...

You've clearly never been to Lords.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

6 minutes ago, maorencze said:

But it's not elevated and doesn't have weirdly dressed middle-aged guys sitting around instead of referees, so not the same...

You have a point about “elevated” but the rest is way off!

[Jakusotsu 5,981]

10 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

it's the little men era. 

Bitter old me can't shake the feeling that half of Makuuchi consists of Juryo rikishi while Juryo is half Makushita.

[Gabriel 13]

On 23/11/2019 at 19:17, Tigerboy1966 said:

 

 Is there any new about Tomokaze injury?

 

[Jakusotsu 5,981]

19 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

 Is there any new about Tomokaze injury?

Yes.

[Gabriel 13]

28 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Yes.

What about it? What has been said?

[ryafuji 815]

27 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

What about it? What has been said?

Er, there was a link. If you click on it you see:

Tomokaze had surgery mid month and is doing rehab in the hospital at the moment. Oguruma-oyakata now says: "It will surely take half a year" http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20191124/sum19112416360011-n1.html

[Amamaniac 2,079]

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Bitter old me can't shake the feeling that half of Makuuchi consists of Juryo rikishi while Juryo is half Makushita.

Disillusioned old me shares that feeling, but clings to the hope that somewhere in the other half of Juryo lie the missing pieces from the Juryo-esque half of Makuuchi...

Edited November 25, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Amamaniac 2,079]

12 hours ago, sekitori said:

This probably makes no sense, but I think Hakuho was doing Takakeisho a big favor. Once he controlled Takakeisho's mawashi, the match was over. But instead of pushing him off the dohyo right away, he just maintained his position. To some observers, it might appear that Takakesisho was doing something to block Hakuho's forward movement. But the lack of Hakuho's forward progress had nothing to do with Takakeisho's resistance. It was due entirely to Hakuho himself. I think the longer a bout with Hakuho lasts, the more impressive his opponent seems to be. 

I wouldn't doubt that while they were locked together, Hakuho whispered, "Hang in there. You're gonna lose but you stlll will look pretty good". As I said, this idea probably makes no sense but if nothing else, it does sound kind of interesting. 

Your theory is definitely interesting!  Given Hakuho's penchant for trying to encourage those next gen wrestlers who show promise, the theory carries some weight.

But here is how I saw what happened.  Throughout this tournament, Hakuho made sure to keep strong yotsu opponents off his belt.  The only wrestlers he allowed on his belt were those who are known pusher-thrusters (e.g., Takakeisho).  He knows full well which pusher thrusters have no belt game – in Takakeisho's case, Hakuho has had ample opportunity to suss out Takakeisho's sumo in degeiko etc.  While he could have been giving Takakeisho a chance to surprise everyone or giving the 23 year-old Ozeki a lesson that he had better develop his yotsu-zumo if he wants to go further up the banzuke, I suspect that Hakuho was simply playing:  playing mind games, playing it safe, and as he seems want to do, playing with his food.

 

[Akinomaki 40,594]

On 21/11/2019 at 22:03, Akinomaki said:

Here we have the YDC - they likely rejoice that they can dish Hakuho another demand on Monday to stop the kachiage. I wonder what they will threaten him with to have the effect last longer this time.

The YDC didn't forget to appreciate the 43rd yusho, but mainly objected to the way Hakuho dealt with Endo - and others. Chief Yano: "Isn't that going too far? Nearly all member thought it an ugly sight as the behavior of a yokozuna." "We want to see some guidance by the NSK."

o

In the press conference some media people expressed the opinion that it was an elbow strike rather than a kachiage. But Shibatayama made clear that the NSK has no intention to caution Hakuho or Miyagino-oyakata: "We want his opponents to be alert. The one who uses harite and kachiage opens up his side." http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201911250000670.html

Edited November 25, 2019 by Akinomaki

[Dapeng 235]

1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

The YDC didn't forget to appreciate the 43rd yusho, but mainly objected to the way Hakuho dealt with Endo - and others. Chief Yano: "Isn't that going too far? Nearly all member thought it an ugly sight as the behavior of a yokozuna." "We want to see some guidance by the NSK."

o

In the press conference some expressed the opinion that it was an elbow strike rather than a kachiage. But Shibatayama made clear that the NSK has no intention to caution Hakuho or Miyagino-oyakata: "We want his opponents to be alert. The one who uses harite and kachiage opens up his side." http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201911250000670.html

Expected, isn't it? Basically the YDC want to see Hakuho lossing. However, this time Shibatayama is right: instead of blaming Hakuho for being too strong, he encourages rikishies to find a way to defeat Hakuho.

The 2019 saw the demotion of 3 ozekies, and kadoban is so frequent. Those ozekies are disappointing.

[Morty 1,495]

9 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Your theory is definitely interesting!  Given Hakuho's penchant for trying to encourage those next gen wrestlers who show promise, the theory carries some weight.

But here is how I saw what happened.  Throughout this tournament, Hakuho made sure to keep strong yotsu opponents off his belt.  The only wrestlers he allowed on his belt were those who are known pusher-thrusters (e.g., Takakeisho).  He knows full well which pusher thrusters have no belt game – in Takakeisho's case, Hakuho has had ample opportunity to suss out Takakeisho's sumo in degeiko etc.  While he could have been giving Takakeisho a chance to surprise everyone or giving the 23 year-old Ozeki a lesson that he had better develop his yotsu-zumo if he wants to go further up the banzuke, I suspect that Hakuho was simply playing:  playing mind games, playing it safe, and as he seems want to do, playing with his food.

 

Hak likes to encourage the up and comers but at the same time he wants them to get to the top by actually beating him (which is obviously really hard). I don't think he ever gave anyone a free ride by letting them win - he isn't wired that way. He gives them the opportunity to win and if they don't take it, well then they weren't up to it. He both wants to be the top dog alpha-male AND to help the next generation to make it to the top. He definitely doesn't want to lose (as is demonstrated by 45 yushos). So he let Takakeisho get on the belt and said "okay, now do something with it" and when he didn't he just beat him.  

[Kishinoyama 595]

38 minutes ago, Morty said:

.... He definitely doesn't want to lose (as is demonstrated by 45 yushos)..... 

Not yet but I hope so. 

[sekitori 492]

When Hakuho gripped onto Takakeisho's mawashi, because Takakeisho has very little yotsu-zumo ability, the bout was over. When two rikishis are grabbing onto each other's mawashis and there is no movement at all, there can be a question as to who has an advantage. That was not the case in this match.  Hakuho was in complete control and he could have ended it any time he cared to. I still think the reason it took him so long to finish the match was to make it appear that Takakeisho's mawashi technique was moderately decent--which it definitely was not. Hakuho came away with the easiest win possible while Takakeisho left with his dignity intact by lasting well over a minute before losing. However,  that result was due much,  much more to Hakuho's efforts (or lack of same) than his own. 

[Akinomaki 40,594]

3 hours ago, sekitori said:

When Hakuho gripped onto Takakeisho's mawashi, because Takakeisho has very little yotsu-zumo ability, the bout was over. When two rikishis are grabbing onto each other's mawashis and there is no movement at all, there can be a question as to who has an advantage. That was not the case in this match.  Hakuho was in complete control and he could have ended it any time he cared to. I still think the reason it took him so long to finish the match was to make it appear that Takakeisho's mawashi technique was moderately decent--which it definitely was not. Hakuho came away with the easiest win possible while Takakeisho left with his dignity intact by lasting well over a minute before losing. However,  that result was due much,  much more to Hakuho's efforts (or lack of same) than his own. 

Hakuho tried to show Takakeisho how to fight on the mawashi without getting injured

[Konosato 45]

7 hours ago, sekitori said:

When Hakuho gripped onto Takakeisho's mawashi, because Takakeisho has very little yotsu-zumo ability, the bout was over. When two rikishis are grabbing onto each other's mawashis and there is no movement at all, there can be a question as to who has an advantage. That was not the case in this match.  Hakuho was in complete control and he could have ended it any time he cared to. I still think the reason it took him so long to finish the match was to make it appear that Takakeisho's mawashi technique was moderately decent--which it definitely was not. Hakuho came away with the easiest win possible while Takakeisho left with his dignity intact by lasting well over a minute before losing. However,  that result was due much,  much more to Hakuho's efforts (or lack of same) than his own. 

I totally agree with your analysis Sekitori but can not get through that Hakuho has broadcast a certain arrogance.

[Gabriel 13]

18 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Your theory is definitely interesting!  Given Hakuho's penchant for trying to encourage those next gen wrestlers who show promise, the theory carries some weight.

But here is how I saw what happened.  Throughout this tournament, Hakuho made sure to keep strong yotsu opponents off his belt.  The only wrestlers he allowed on his belt were those who are known pusher-thrusters (e.g., Takakeisho).  He knows full well which pusher thrusters have no belt game – in Takakeisho's case, Hakuho has had ample opportunity to suss out Takakeisho's sumo in degeiko etc.  While he could have been giving Takakeisho a chance to surprise everyone or giving the 23 year-old Ozeki a lesson that he had better develop his yotsu-zumo if he wants to go further up the banzuke, I suspect that Hakuho was simply playing:  playing mind games, playing it safe, and as he seems want to do, playing with his food.

 

I was thinking why Hakuho let that time pass, when he could finish takakeisho in the momento. I thought it was a symbolic pose in the last moments of the basho.

[Andreas21 184]

19 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

o

But Shibatayama made clear that the NSK has no intention to caution Hakuho or Miyagino-oyakata: "We want his opponents to be alert. The one who uses harite and kachiage opens up his side." http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201911250000670.html

Great statement. Hakuho did the harite/kachiage often enough, his oppenents should be aware of it. It can be countered! This can even be trained.

Sure, the kachiage hurts. But it hurts less then a mighty bang of both heads in tachi-ai. Isn't this even uglier? I mean, both suffer more or less a concussion and the one which is slightly less dizzy from it wins. Starting off with harite avoids this.

[Dapeng 235]

5 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

Great statement. Hakuho did the harite/kachiage often enough, his oppenents should be aware of it. It can be countered! This can even be trained.

Sure, the kachiage hurts. But it hurts less then a mighty bang of both heads in tachi-ai. Isn't this even uglier? I mean, both suffer more or less a concussion and the one which is slightly less dizzy from it wins. Starting off with harite avoids this.

Sure, the NSK should protect and defend its rikishi.

As to the kachiage, it may look brutal to some people but actually it is much safer than head on head clash. 

[Joaoiyama 308]

The angle and leverage of the kachiage is more dangerous and powerfull than the headbutt, the forearm hits the jaw which shakes the brain against the skull causing massive concussions and knockouts while the headbutt at the tachi ai hits the crown of the skull. Both are great weapons that should be encouraged.

[sekitori 492]

2 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

The angle and leverage of the kachiage is more dangerous and powerfull than the headbutt, the forearm hits the jaw which shakes the brain against the skull causing massive concussions and knockouts while the headbutt at the tachi ai hits the crown of the skull. Both are great weapons that should be encouraged.

It's true that the kachiage in and of itself is far more dangerous than the headbutt. However, kachiages don't occur very often. The headbutt, while far less severe, happens extremely often in a rkishi's career and its long term effects can be much more serious. I'm referring to CTE, a brain injury which has been proven to occur in many American professional football players and can result in dementia in later life. Helmets provide some protection, but not enough to prevent it. I wonder if trauma to the brain is as common in rikishis who have a lot of head to head contact without any sort of protection at all. I would guess that it's far more prevalent than we realize.

I have no idea how the effects of head to head contact in sumo can be reduced. Tradition indicates that any sort of head protection will never be used. Such contact could eventually be banned altogether. The chances of such a rule ever occurring is at least a million to one, maybe more. Meawhile, rikishis will continue to bang their heads together, at possibly great future risk.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by sekitori