Stable? Why?

[Kintamayama 45,283]

Sometimes we deal with things on a daily basis (BTW, Hiro Morita says "on a daily basis" about 30 times each broadcast, on a daily basis. "They will lock horns" as well..). Like sumo stables. When did that become a thing in English? Heya is room in Japanese. Stable is umagoya. AFAIK, heya on its own does not translate as stable, or does it?  So how come we call them stables in English? I am baffled.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

A promotion company's or coach's stable of fighters is a term common to boxing, and more recently in MMA.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/stable

Edited November 20, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[Naganoyama 5,939]

It probably comes from horseracing where you talk about a string of horses coming from 'the Gifford stable' meaning that they are trained in the same establishment rather than that they are housed in the same loosebox..

[Kintamayama 45,283]

OK, but why and how did it come to be a part of sumo? Most other groups in sports are called teams.  And this- that of "group of prostitutes working for the same employer" is from 1937. I personally never heard of a group of boxers under the same management referred to as a stable. More like a gym. Same goes for wrestling. Does anyone have a link to anything referring to a boxing team as a stable? Wrestling? I've never seen it referred to any sport except sumo.

[CT3* 331]

2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I personally never heard of a group of boxers under the same management referred to as a stable. 

I have. And boxing and sumo are literally the only sports I follow. Referring to a "stable of fighters' is pretty common in boxing circles.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

A gym is where a fighter trains. You know, like a heya. Google "a stable of fighters". Links galore. This is an incredibly common English term. I get it. You never heard it. Just like I never heard some terms common in the UK and elsewhere. We live and learn.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Otokonoyama

[Kintamayama 45,283]

23 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

A gym is where a fighter trains. You know, like a heya. Google "a stable of fighters". Links galore. This is an incredibly common English term. I get it. You never heard it. Just like I never heard some terms common in the UK and elsewhere. We live and learn.

Indeed. I see it referred solely to boxing and not to wrestling, for instance. So why sumo? I am wondering if in Japanese there is a stable connotation , or if it's an English thing. AFAIK, there isn't. But again, I guess I don't know.. And would it be right to translate the heyas to stables in French, for instance? Because if it's an English idiom thing, it would be wrong. The reason all this came up is I was on TV and was asked why they are called stables and suddenly realized I have no idea. I feel I am not making myself clear here..

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_stables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:WWE_teams_and_stables

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/880940-pro-wrestling-the-15-greatest-stables-of-wrestling-in-the-nineties

[Nantonoyama 252]

A Formula 1 team is called a stable in italian (scuderia) and French (écurie). The origin in horseracing is pretty straightforward here.

4 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

And would it be right to translate the heyas to stables in French, for instance? 

As a French speaker I can say the word écurie (stable) is used. Whether it is a direct translation from English or not I do not know.

[Kintamayama 45,283]

27 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

A gym is where a fighter trains. You know, like a heya. Google "a stable of fighters". 

So in boxing, a fighter belonging to a stable trains at the gym right? And in sumo, a fighter belonging to a stable trains at the stable, right? Or does heya have two different meanings? None of which is stable, BTW.. I'm even more confused, as heya is used in two different ways- one, as a team, and one, as a lodging, where the training occurs. 

[Kintamayama 45,283]

5 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_stables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:WWE_teams_and_stables

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/880940-pro-wrestling-the-15-greatest-stables-of-wrestling-in-the-nineties

OK, thanks.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

No problem. I'm questioned on a daily basis for decades why I think I know English. And I'm quite open that I know a version of it, and that's about all.

I have second, third, fourth and beyond generation American/Canadian-Japanese friends constantly fighting with Japanese native speakers about the minutia of language. You have fantastic English and Japanese and who knows how many other languages. No man is an island. Well, perhaps Toyonoshima. YMMV. 

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

One of the conundrums of language, perhaps. A stable is both a location and a family. As is a gym, a dojo, a school, a guild and so on. There are folks like Asashosakari, who have an uncanny precision, and there are the rest of us.

[Akinomaki 40,642]

I hate to use the term stable for heya itself (to my disgust I found that I had used it on the forum in my first year), or it's German equivalent - just as I wouldn't use any other term for dojo than dojo - except jokingly or in stablemate (but why does it feel OK there?). For people to whom I want to explain it I use team club and the German (etc.) equivalent as in football team club. A Japanese without any knowledge of sumo wouldn't understand what is meant by heya in the sumo context, so why try to translate the word itself? (and I don't translate anyway).

Edited November 20, 2019 by Akinomaki

[Rocks 1,809]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

So in boxing, a fighter belonging to a stable trains at the gym right? And in sumo, a fighter belonging to a stable trains at the stable, right? Or does heya have two different meanings? None of which is stable, BTW.. I'm even more confused, as heya is used in two different ways- one, as a team, and one, as a lodging, where the training occurs. 

As pointed out the relation to horses is well known.  I can see where a heya came to be called a stable in English as the competitors are raised up by a manager and trainer.  Similar to horses and boxers. Without it they would be nowhere. They have to have significant support until they can reach a level worthy of making real money. The other consideration is that they are in a sense owned because of this. Which is why Pro wrestler's are considered in a stable. They compete where and when they are told too. A piece of their earnings belongs to their management. They are under exclusive deals. Even in the case of when one is able to change agents, like a boxer, they may have past deals which force them to pay their original manager when they compete. This isn't exclusive to sports either.  Many years ago when you still had the studio system in Hollywood actors trained and signed to them could be referred to as their stable. That changed with actors refused to sign exclusive deals any more.

 It makes no sense to call a heya a team as they do not compete together. They just have the same management. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Rocks

[Kujiramaru 4]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

OK, but why and how did it come to be a part of sumo? Most other groups in sports are called teams.  And this- that of "group of prostitutes working for the same employer" is from 1937. I personally never heard of a group of boxers under the same management referred to as a stable. More like a gym. Same goes for wrestling. Does anyone have a link to anything referring to a boxing team as a stable? Wrestling? I've never seen it referred to any sport except sumo.

Hello. Long time lurker and fellow sumo fan. Somehow this is the topic that motivated me to make an account.

As the comments have stated, the term "stable" as used for wrestlers, boxers, and actors has been around for some time. A cursory bout of research reveals in Google Books that the term "sumo stable" was used as early as February 1965 by "Black Belt" Magazine: https://books.google.com/books?id=B9kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA63&dq=sumo%20stable&pg=PA63#v=onepage&q=sumo%20stable&f=false

Wikipedia states that Black Belt is one of the longest-running magazines in the U.S. dedicated to martial arts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Belt_(magazine)

Not a particularly thorough answer but hopefully gives you some perspective for how long the term has been around. My guess is that martial arts enthusiasts in the U.S. (such as the contributors to Black Belt Magazine) started using the term "stable" as an imprecise but rational translation in the mid-20th century, and it obviously grew in popularity until its ubiquity today.

[Jakusotsu 5,987]

3 hours ago, Nantonoyama said:

A Formula 1 team is called a stable in italian (scuderia) and French (écurie). The origin in horseracing is pretty straightforward here.

It's the same in German.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

Maybe we should be translating "heya" as "home for troubled youths" or "detention centre"... 

I know, not helpful.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Amamaniac

[Akinomaki 40,642]

2 hours ago, Rocks said:

It makes no sense to call a heya a team as they do not compete together. They just have the same management. 

You're right there. In English I now always use the term "heya" in this case, and I hardly explain about sumo in English other than here. In German I use both team, club and "Verein" - I meant club in English. Team in German can be used a bit more fuzzy.

[Washuyama 641]

3 hours ago, Kujiramaru said:

My guess is that martial arts enthusiasts in the U.S. (such as the contributors to Black Belt Magazine) started using the term "stable" as an imprecise but rational translation in the mid-20th century

Just a guess, but it may have come about during the post-war occupation when,I assume, a number of American G.I.s discovered sumo and tried to put it in familiar terms. 

[Asashosakari 19,451]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, in athletics and a few other non-team, non-combat sports, the heya equivalent would usually simply be called a training group. 

[Jakusotsu 5,987]

I have no problem with the term "stable", as long as Chiyotairyu isn't involved.

[Rocks 1,809]

You will sometime see a sports group which doesn't compete as a team referred to as a Squad too. Amateur sports teams are sometimes called squads.

[Sue 508]

You can be the one to tell the rikishi that you think they're unstable. Let me know how that goes.

[Atenzan 1,083]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Just to muddy the waters a bit, in athletics and a few other non-team, non-combat sports, the heya equivalent would usually simply be called a training group. 

That's how I translate it to Greek for my more sumocurious friends. "Stable" sounds very awkward. In boxing, a stable is called a "school"- but the feminine σχολή and not the neuter σχολείο, the former being associated with universities and the latter with grade school in common parlance.