Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Godango 1,014]

On 29/11/2020 at 03:08, Eikokurai said:

I don’t think a 13-2 or even 12-3 non-yusho record in January would hurt him and reset his run. If sandwiched between two yusho, or between the yusho and a JY-D in March, that’s a quite promotable streak. Whether a Y-JY-JY run would be enough, I’m less certain. I guess that would depend on the strength of the JYs and whether he was truly in the race (as with the Hakuho 2006 case). 14-1, second to a Y/O zensho, is arguably as good as or even better than, a 13-2 yusho without Y/O competition, as was the case this November.

So on this.

Let's envision a world where Takakeisho had 14 wins, defeats a full slate of ozeki, defeats Kakuryu; loses to Hakuho (who zenshos).

Surely that's enough, right? Otherwise man, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

1 hour ago, Houmanumi said:

So on this.

Let's envision a world where Takakeisho had 14 wins, defeats a full slate of ozeki, defeats Kakuryu; loses to Hakuho (who zenshos).

Surely that's enough, right? Otherwise man, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it has to be, especially if he loses to Hakuho in a yusho decider on senshuraku. But that would imply things about Kakuryu's record that they had to shift him away from the yokozuna match as the musubi on senshuraku, so I'm not sure how much I like that scenario.

[Tigerboy1966 1,474]

9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

And even for both Akebono and Hokutoumi, yorikiri followed as the second most common; both Akebono and Hokutoumi also recorded triple-digit yorikiri wins.

Whereas Takakeisho's second and third most common kimarites are tsukiotoshi and tsukidashi at 16% each. That gives him a combined total of 78% oshizumo wins at least.

While we're having fun with stats...

If you take the yorikiri percentage and subtract the oshidashi percentage (call it the "Y factor") you get Takakeisho -45.02, Hokutoumi -6.25  and Akebono -0.33, so he would be a real outlier.

The only sanyaku wrestler since 1958 with a lower Y Factor than Takakeisho is Daiju, an ozeki from the 70s with -47.73.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Tigerboy1966
ce

[Eikokurai 3,437]

4 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

So on this.

Let's envision a world where Takakeisho had 14 wins, defeats a full slate of ozeki, defeats Kakuryu; loses to Hakuho (who zenshos).

Surely that's enough, right? Otherwise man, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

If that happens in January, promotion is a certainty, imo. If January is an average JY and then he does as you described in March? That’s a little more up in the air. It would be just the sort of borderline record they could justify promoting him with but also justify not promoting him with. 

[Asojima 2,874]

After his 1-2-12 in Hatsu, Taka will probably need at least a 13-2 JY and a yusho in March and May to get a rope for July.  It would still be touch and go.

[Tigerboy1966 1,474]

12 hours ago, Reonito said:

From the kimarite description for yorikiri in Japanese on the NSK website: "It means to put your body in close contact with the opponent and move forward or sideways to get out of the ring and win." (google translate) No mention of a belt hold.

True. Kotoshogiku had a massive YK percentage but very rarely went to the belt.

[Asashosakari 19,654]

14 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Those don't even need to, in reality, involve the mawashi.  Why the official description includes a requirement of a mawashi hold is unclear, because anything resembling a force-out with the entire body is going to be called one of those things, depending on whether the person falls down or not as they are forced out.  There simply isn't anything else to call it.  They certainly could make a kimarite for something resembling yorikiri that doesn't require a mawashi grip to fill the space, but they haven't.

I imagine that's exactly what oshikiri used to be, but I guess they didn't see the need for the distinction anymore in the 1950s and it was standardized out of existence.

Edit: Or maybe yoridashi, who knows...

Edited December 2, 2020 by Asashosakari

[Yamanashi 3,903]

9 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

While we're having fun with stats...

If you take the yorikiri percentage and subtract the oshidashi percentage (call it the "Y factor") you get Takakeisho -45.02, Hokutoumi -6.25  and Akebono -0.33, so he would be a real outlier.

The only sanyaku wrestler since 1958 with a lower Y Factor than Takakeisho is Daiju, an ozeki from the 70s with -47.73.

Agree.  As per my post above, he very possibly has never touched the opponent's mawashi on purpose in a winning bout.

[Reonito 1,519]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I imagine that's exactly what oshikiri used to be, but I guess they didn't see the need for the distinction anymore in the 1950s and it was standardized out of existence.

Edit: Or maybe yoridashi, who knows...

This would have been hilarious as a joke, and amazing that it's real.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I imagine that's exactly what oshikiri used to be, but I guess they didn't see the need for the distinction anymore in the 1950s and it was standardized out of existence.

Edit: Or maybe yoridashi, who knows...

Oshikiri was used last in 1953 by Ohikari (future Onomatsu-Oyakata) against Onobori (future Kasugayama).  It seemed to be a relatively rare call (481 from 1927 to 1953).  There is a thread on "old kimarite" from 2012, with input from some guy named Asasho ... er, never mind.

[Asojima 2,874]

5 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I imagine that's exactly what oshikiri used to be, but I guess they didn't see the need for the distinction anymore in the 1950s and it was standardized out of existence.

Edit: Or maybe yoridashi, who knows...

FWIW, it's not like the above two were combined and called a new kimarite "yorikiri".  During the same period, there were over 3000 yorikiri. ( about 1000 oshidashi and 500 oshitaoshi)

Edited December 2, 2020 by Asojima

[Eikokurai 3,437]

These records of obsolete kimarite are like trace fossils of rare dinosaur species. We know they existed but we don’t have enough evidence to confirm exactly what they were. It’s a little frustrating to have so much information but there be such little substance to it. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

The older 20th century kimarite are not even determined by the NSK right? I thought that reporters from the newspaper would put the kimarite on their own in the paper reports.

[Kotomaru 32]

A Yoridashi, apparently.....

A belt grip Gaburi Yori or something, I guess. You grip him close and shove him out with your body, as opposed to using any outright manhandling or lifting with your arms.... 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Kotomaru

[Yamanashi 3,903]

And with the retirement of Kotoshogiku comes the end of the Yoridashi Era in Sumo.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

Yoridashioshikiriotoshi - the world wouldn't be any poorer if 90% of all bouts are just being called Kachi, and the other 10% Ura.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Yoridashioshikiriotoshi - the world wouldn't be any poorer if 90% of all bouts are just being called Kachi, and the other 10% Ura.

I 'liked" it, though I disagree.  Part of my enjoyment of seeing basho broadcasts is hearing the announcer in his high, clipped voice announcing "ha ta ki ko mi".

[Gurowake 4,107]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Yoridashioshikiriotoshi - the world wouldn't be any poorer if 90% of all bouts are just being called Kachi, and the other 10% Ura.

Sotouchiuwateshitatedashinagegakehinerimuso.

[Kaminariyuki 500]

On 03/12/2020 at 17:37, Gurowake said:

Sotouchiuwateshitatedashinagegakehinerimuso.

Say that three times fast.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

7 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

Say that three times fast.

Can't even say it once slow.

[Kaminariyuki 500]

Just now, Seiyashi said:

Can't even say it once slow.

Gambatte kudasai.

But, please record it for us.  

 

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

21 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Can't even say it once slow.

You have a much better chance than Hiro Morita's eternal struggle with Wakatakakage.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

I used to change from Midosuji-sen to Hankyu-sen at Nishinakajima-minamigata station and ever since I’ve never had trouble wrapping my tongue around Japanese words.

Wakatakakage? Piece of cake.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

I used to change from Midosuji-sen to Hankyu-sen at Nishinakajima-minamigata station and ever since I’ve never had trouble wrapping my tongue around Japanese words.

Wakatakakage? Piece of cake.

To be fair, if you can see how those words break into kanji, it suddenly becomes super easy to pronounce, as opposed to reading it in a chunk of romaji that looks like it came out of a Lewis Carroll novel.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

On 06/12/2020 at 12:57, Seiyashi said:

To be fair, if you can see how those words break into kanji, it suddenly becomes super easy to pronounce, as opposed to reading it in a chunk of romaji that looks like it came out of a Lewis Carroll novel.

Boy you nailed it (of course I'm a non-Japanese reader).  Certain terms trigger me: Yobidashi sounds very Carrolesque.  Others sound Italian (because of the final vowels): the kimarite Amiuchi sounds like "little friend", and Tottari could be one of those Sicilian greetings you'd hear in a Godfather movie.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Yamanashi
spelling, of course