YDC convenes after November 2020

[Yamanashi 3,903]

38 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

I have no doubt that like a Tim Duncan could return for one night or a small stretch of games and do very well. I have a lot of doubts on whether he could do that for 82 games.

I think that Hakuho can win one basho after many months off, but I'm doubting whether he can do that if he had to wrestle every match.

Now the problem here is that while anyone under Ozeki has to not only wrestle but do well in 65-90 matches each year. Kakuryu only had to wrestle 16 times this year and Hakuho only had to wrestle 32 times this year. It's a major advantage to only have to wrestle a 1/5th to 1/2 of the matches other people do. It's a lot less wear and tear and it's a lot less chances for injuries.

It sucks for the fans who don't get to see the top ranked wrestlers wrestle. It sucks for the promoters who have to convince people to buy tickets and sponsorships for an event where the two most important people might not even show up. It sucks for the wrestlers who can't get kinboshi, can't make the headlines for grabbing a big win over a Yok and can't get better by wrestling against better talent.

And it sucks for the NSK to keep paying these guys top dollar while maybe their gate income is suppressed further with the Yokozunae out of the basho.

[Kaninoyama 1,817]

On 24/11/2020 at 20:55, Koorifuu said:

Is the YDC working together with Japan's Ministry of Justice to absolutely prevent Kakuryu from getting those citizenship papers, or what?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that it was his home country of Mongolia, not Japan, that was holding up the process. 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

5 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

I have no doubt that like a Tim Duncan could return for one night or a small stretch of games and do very well. I have a lot of doubts on whether he could do that for 82 games.

 I think that Hakuho can win one basho after many months off, but I'm doubting whether he can do that if he had to wrestle every match.

This is an important point and one that’s made me think a little differently about the situation.

It’s been said many times over the past couple of years that Hakuho is still the guy to beat and shouldn’t have to retire, simply because when he does turn up he is still able to win a yusho (or at least be in the race). In many people’s eyes, winning one basho a year in between long spells of kyujo buys him time and breathing space. It’s taken as a sign of his continued dominance, power, ability, etc: “Hey, he’s still the GOAT because when he does enter, he wins!”

But is it? As you say, top athletes in most sports could train up enough to return for short successful stints just because their natural ability and experience puts them at a certain level by default. Michael Schumacher returned from retirement after several years out and, while he didn’t hit the same heights of old, was more than able to compete in the most demanding level of motor racing, just because of his experience and skill level. An aging and wounded Hakuho is still Hakuho, talented and ring-wise enough to slot back in at the top when he feels up to it. 

But then that isn’t what he’s paid to do. A Yokozuna is paid to enter every basho, and the privilege of not getting demoted is not an invitation to just sit out basho when they feel like it. That’s not why the system exists, it’s just a consequence of it, but one that Yokozuna are expected to have the hinkaku not to exploit. They’re expected to recognize when they can’t compete at the highest level every time and bow out gracefully. Winning one basho a year* is not a sign of continued strength, but the opposite; it’s a sign the Yokozuna can’t compete at the required level anymore. It’s not ‘he can win one basho a year’, it’s ‘he can win ONLY one basho a year and only after long periods of rest and recuperation’. I think I and many others have been looking at it the wrong way around.

 

*Specifically, winning one basho a year at a time like this. Kakuryu has obviously been a one-basho-a-year Yokozuna all along, but because of the presence of Hakuho, Harumafuji and a strong sanyaku. A Yokozuna winning one basho a year right now, with the weakened field we have, is very different. That’s a Yokozuna underperforming.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Godango 1,014]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

But then that isn’t what he’s paid to do. A Yokozuna is paid to enter every basho, and the privilege of not getting demoted is not an invitation to just sit out basho when they feel like it. That’s not why the system exists, it’s just a consequence of it, but one that Yokozuna are expected to have the hinkaku not to exploit. They’re expected to recognize when they can’t compete at the highest level every time and bow out gracefully. Winning one basho a year* is not a sign of continued strength, but the opposite; it’s a sign the Yokozuna can’t compete at the required level anymore. It’s not ‘he can win one basho a year’, it’s ‘he can win ONLY one basho a year and only after long periods of rest and recuperation’. I think I and many others have been looking at it the wrong way around.

 

*Specifically, winning one basho a year at a time like this. Kakuryu has obviously been a one-basho-a-year Yokozuna all along, but because of the presence of Hakuho, Harumafuji and a strong sanyaku. A Yokozuna winning one basho a year right now, with the weakened field we have, is very different. That’s a Yokozuna underperforming.

Referring specifically to Hakuho, I would come back with the fact that no other wrestler has proved themselves his peer.

If, in his absence, another rikishi were to win multiple cups, then I'd agree that his erratic attendance isn't enough. 

Looking at the last six tournament (ignoring cancelled Natsu), he's shown up 4 times, withdrawn with a poor opening few days once, 10 wins then an injury and a withdrawl once, and won two yusho. It's a perfectly good record. If he were an ozeki he'd only need ten wins in January to jump back up; do we really think he won't get that?

Is Hakuho what he once was? No. Is he still the best current Rikishi? Based on the above and his demolition of all comers at the public keiko before Kyushu; yes. And so he's still very much the valid yokozuna. 
 

That said; if he were to not show or do badly in January; then yes; that likely tilts the scales more to warning level.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

1 hour ago, Houmanumi said:

Referring specifically to Hakuho, I would come back with the fact that no other wrestler has proved themselves his peer.

If, in his absence, another rikishi were to win multiple cups, then I'd agree that his erratic attendance isn't enough. 

Looking at the last six tournament (ignoring cancelled Natsu), he's shown up 4 times, withdrawn with a poor opening few days once, 10 wins then an injury and a withdrawl once, and won two yusho. It's a perfectly good record. If he were an ozeki he'd only need ten wins in January to jump back up; do we really think he won't get that?

Is Hakuho what he once was? No. Is he still the best current Rikishi? Based on the above and his demolition of all comers at the public keiko before Kyushu; yes. And so he's still very much the valid yokozuna. 
 

That said; if he were to not show or do badly in January; then yes; that likely tilts the scales more to warning level.

Forgive me, but I feel you’re still making the same argument that because he turns up and wins once in a while he’s performing to the level expected of a Yokozuna, which ignores both the point that this is not the level expected of a Yokozuna and also that he’s only able to reach yusho level when he does turn up precisely because he gets to sit out basho in between. Take away the kyujo option and what would happen? If he competed 15 days, six times a year, would he win two yusho? Doubtful. Could he even win two yusho a year if he completed four basho? Again, I’m not convinced he can anymore. That he needs to rest every other basho in order to regain the strength and condition he needs to win tells me he’s no longer capable of performing at the standards demanded of the rank. A Yokozuna isn’t someone expected to win some of the time, but most of the time or even every time. His record may be ‘perfectly good’ in wider sumo terms but Yokozuna are judged by a different standard. The rank comes with responsibility as well as privilege.

Also, the thing about people not replacing him is not especially relevant to the discussion I feel. A Yokozuna is judged alone, by the criteria set by the YDC. That other rikishi are also not performing to Yokozuna level is not evidence that Hakuho and Kakuryu are. 

 

(For what it’s worth, I don’t actually have issue personally with him carrying on; I’m just exploring the argument aloud, so to speak. It’s a thought exercise as much as anything. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but it’s fun to debate.)

Edited November 26, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Shinobi Steve 146]

When going through my own thought exercise aloud, I came to a conclusion that surprised myself. I started watching sumo around when 2013. Hakuho has been dominate for the entire period I’ve been a sumo fan (except for this year at least). I want him to make it to the Olympics because of how great he is and the accomplishments he has earned on the dohyo. That’s a sentimental opinion though. Hakuho has given me a lot of joy over the years as I watched his excellence on full display tournament after tournament. When it comes right down to it though, I think if it were another Yokozuna I’d probably argue that he should retire. When I think bluntly about the issue, I do agree that he isn’t upholding the “standard” that a Yokozuna should set. I was really excited to see Hokuho in November after watching him dominate everyone in the group degeiko. When I found out he would withdrawal, like many fans, I was disappointed. I think he should do better or retire. A the same time, I want him to string along his career until the Olympics because I know how excited I’ll be to see his appearance there. Like many fans, I’m pretty self hypocritical when it comes to this issue. I think he should do better, I’d expect other Yokozuna to retire, but I don’t want HIM to retire yet. 

[Godango 1,014]

43 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Forgive me, but I feel you’re still making the same argument that because he turns up and wins once in a while he’s performing to the level expected of a Yokozuna, which ignores both the point that this is not the level expected of a Yokozuna and also that he’s only able to reach yusho level when he does turn up precisely because he gets to sit out basho in between. Take away the kyujo option and what would happen? If he competed 15 days, six times a year, would he win two yusho? Doubtful. Could he even win two yusho a year if he completed four basho? Again, I’m not convinced he can anymore. That he needs to rest every other basho in order to regain the strength and condition he needs to win tells me he’s no longer capable of performing at the standards demanded of the rank. A Yokozuna isn’t someone expected to win some of the time, but most of the time or even every time. His record may be ‘perfectly good’ in wider sumo terms but Yokozuna are judged by a different standard. The rank comes with responsibility as well as privilege.

Also, the thing about people not replacing him is not especially relevant to the discussion I feel. A Yokozuna is judged alone, by the criteria set by the YDC. That other rikishi are also not performing to Yokozuna level is not evidence that Hakuho and Kakuryu are. 

 

(For what it’s worth, I don’t actually have issue personally with him carrying on; I’m just exploring the argument aloud, so to speak. It’s a thought exercise as much as anything. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but it’s fun to debate.)

So to begin, totally with you on the 'fun to debate thing', as much as anything I like being a devil's advocate.

And granted; it doesn't totally remove your point; but Hakuho being lumped in with Kakuryu is just fundamentally wrong:

So okay, they're a lot closer than I thought before I started this exercise; Kakuryu SHOULD go, whereas Hakuho kinda has one last chance at redemption.

Going back to my ozeki analogy, Kakuryu long ago got demoted from ozeki and is now tumbling down the ranks. Retire. 

Hakuho would still be an Ozeki; and if we were, we'd be saying we hope he gets the ten wins.

Let's be real here, the only difference between an ozeki and a yokozuna is consistency over a longer period; ozeki-level sumo and yokozuna-level sumo are essentially the same.

Hakuho is 'ozekiwake' in January. If he doesn't get at least the ten, than I'm with you; he should give it up. But if he gets 10+; let's all move on and give him a few more tournaments.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

14 minutes ago, Shinobi Steve said:

Hakuho has been dominate for the entire period I’ve been a sumo fan

My first basho proper* was Haru 2007, won by Ozeki Hakuho. It was the yusho that started his tsuna run and I got hooked on the narrative unfolding in the Japanese media at the time. (2007 was eventful for sumo overall actually—I lucked out getting into that year). Thus my sumo fandom has coincided almost exactly with Hakuho’s rise and period at the top. While I can’t say I’ve considered myself a ‘fan’ of his, I too will be sad to see him go simply because it will bring the curtain down on not only an important era for sumo, but also I’ll lose that link back to my year in Japan. Most guys from that time are gone, but Hakuho has been a stable constant in my sumo-watching life. When retirement comes, I expect the nostalgia will hit me.

 

*I’d seen sumo on TV back in the UK in the 90s, but Haru 2007 was my first full tournament and the one that started me as a fan.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Qwerry 25]

2 hours ago, Shinobi Steve said:

I want him to make it to the Olympics because of how great he is and the accomplishments he has earned on the dohyo. That’s a sentimental opinion though.

I just want to remind you that he can only volunteer. In addition, he will not be cut for more than six months after his resignation.
And I don't see much difference whether he will be officially retired at that time or not.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

17 minutes ago, Qwerry said:

3 hours ago, Shinobi Steve said:

I want him to make it to the Olympics because of how great he is and the accomplishments he has earned on the dohyo. That’s a sentimental opinion though.

I just want to remind you that he can only volunteer. In addition, he will not be cut for more than six months after his resignation.
And I don't see much difference whether he will be officially retired at that time or not.

Er, Hakuho wants to do a yokozuna dohyo-iri for the Olympics, in lieu of appearing in an event like his father (silver in wrestling for Mongolia in '68). I highly doubt that the NSK will allow him to do it if he is retired, especially if there is another yokozuna available to do it. That seems to go quite a bit beyond volunteering.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

2 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Forgive me, but I feel you’re still making the same argument that because he turns up and wins once in a while he’s performing to the level expected of a Yokozuna, which ignores both the point that this is not the level expected of a Yokozuna and also that he’s only able to reach yusho level when he does turn up precisely because he gets to sit out basho in between. Take away the kyujo option and what would happen? If he competed 15 days, six times a year, would he win two yusho? Doubtful. Could he even win two yusho a year if he completed four basho? Again, I’m not convinced he can anymore. That he needs to rest every other basho in order to regain the strength and condition he needs to win tells me he’s no longer capable of performing at the standards demanded of the rank. A Yokozuna isn’t someone expected to win some of the time, but most of the time or even every time. His record may be ‘perfectly good’ in wider sumo terms but Yokozuna are judged by a different standard. The rank comes with responsibility as well as privilege.

Also, the thing about people not replacing him is not especially relevant to the discussion I feel. A Yokozuna is judged alone, by the criteria set by the YDC. That other rikishi are also not performing to Yokozuna level is not evidence that Hakuho and Kakuryu are. 

 

(For what it’s worth, I don’t actually have issue personally with him carrying on; I’m just exploring the argument aloud, so to speak. It’s a thought exercise as much as anything. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but it’s fun to debate.)

So to begin, totally with you on the 'fun to debate thing', as much as anything I like being a devil's advocate.

And granted; it doesn't totally remove your point; but Hakuho being lumped in with Kakuryu is just fundamentally wrong:

So okay, they're a lot closer than I thought before I started this exercise; Kakuryu SHOULD go, whereas Hakuho kinda has one last chance at redemption.

Going back to my ozeki analogy, Kakuryu long ago got demoted from ozeki and is now tumbling down the ranks. Retire. 

Hakuho would still be an Ozeki; and if we were, we'd be saying we hope he gets the ten wins.

Let's be real here, the only difference between an ozeki and a yokozuna is consistency over a longer period; ozeki-level sumo and yokozuna-level sumo are essentially the same.

Hakuho is 'ozekiwake' in January. If he doesn't get at least the ten, than I'm with you; he should give it up. But if he gets 10+; let's all move on and give him a few more tournaments.

IMO this is right; Hakuho and Kakuryu are miles apart in terms of performance.

Re privilege of non-demotion, let's be real - the practical effect of that is that you can take time off to recuperate. Otherwise no one would want to be yokozuna because it's a strictly worse option than ozeki - you can never have another losing tournament, for whatever reason, EVER. And for it to be better than ozeki, you should have at least one more tournament's grace, so say 2 non-appearances before "yokozuna kadoban". That said, Onokuni, Takanohana and then Kisenosato went and kept stretching the period of time you could be out; the latter two probably overdid it.

So even if you take Hakuho's absences as losing records and apply a kadoban reasoning to them, he's still cleared his "yokozuna kadoban" every single time, and if he shows up in Hatsu 2021 and gets his yokozuna KK, he'll clear it again. I have no issue with him because he did have fairly clear surgical intervention prior to his rest, and despite smashing everyone at the joint keiko sessions, he's still entitled to consider the state of his knee (although I still think his zenkyu was partially tactical in consideration of Kakuryu; it may or may not have worked, but almost certainly wouldn't have if Kakuryu was the only top rikishi to sit out the basho again). That said, his record over the last two years looks very much like an ozeki in kadoban trouble and surprisingly similar to Asahifuji's end of career record; it's a definite sign he's approaching the end of his fighting capability, but not like we didn't know that already. But if he can clear it again more power to him and he can stick around a bit more.

No surprise, Kakuryu fails to clear yokozuna kadoban, repeatedly. His looks more like Onokuni's; we'll probably see one more full tournament out of him at best and then it's curtains.  

As for the matter of no one replacing them, there's probably some conflation between the fact that strictly speaking, you don't need to beat a yokozuna to be a yokozuna, and the fact that many yokozuna have retired after losing to up-and-comers who were clearly going to replace them, coupled with the optics that a rope run looks really good only if you can beat an existing holder. It's probably better for an incoming yokozuna to be able to beat an old one to show a continuation of a certain level of sumo (leaving aside tactical issues of whether one type of sumo beats another etcetc), but that can be done away with in certain circumstances (like pre-Akebono). In this case, considering both yokozuna are holding on for external reasons, I don't think they will retire just because they lose to their replacement, but it's certainly not a bad thing that they're sticking around to be beaten by said replacement.

[Fukuyamada 42]

Whether or not an aging athlete dealing with injuries and/or surgeries are physically ready to compete at the highest level should increasingly depend on the assessment of sport medicine experts and physicians. I think YDC assessments make sense for the most part, but they generally seem to lack the information or understanding of that aspect of sports performance and have been rightly criticized for it over the years.

[kumoryu 95]

On 26/11/2020 at 13:13, Houmanumi said:

So to begin, totally with you on the 'fun to debate thing', as much as anything I like being a devil's advocate.

And granted; it doesn't totally remove your point; but Hakuho being lumped in with Kakuryu is just fundamentally wrong:

So okay, they're a lot closer than I thought before I started this exercise; Kakuryu SHOULD go, whereas Hakuho kinda has one last chance at redemption.

...

The numbers in that table are really revealing. Interesting that you took the last four years, but if we take the last three calendar years (in this case, 17 basho) Hakuho and Kakuryu are practically even -- 106 wins v 105 wins over 17 basho.

To compare with the most recent yokuzana in their final 17 basho to give a measure of how they compare:

133 2Y 4J Akebono

84   2Y 3J Takanohana

118 4Y 3J Musashimaru

154  5Y 3J Asashoryu

149 3Y 2J Harumafuji

97   2Y 3J Kisenosato

106 4Y 1J Hakuho

105 3Y 2J Kakuryu

Given that both Asashoryu and Harumafuji's careers were cut off early for non-performance-related reasons, the average for the other four retired yokuzuna is 108.

That would suggest to me that if either Kakuryu or Hakuho miss the next tournament completely they will be in the range where retirement is practically certain. That's true for both of them, not just Kakuryu, the difference over these last three years is not numerically significant.

 

[Bombur 50]

2 hours ago, kumoryu said:

The numbers in that table are really revealing. Interesting that you took the last four years, but if we take the last three calendar years (in this case, 17 basho) Hakuho and Kakuryu are practically even -- 106 wins v 105 wins over 17 basho.

To compare with the most recent yokuzana in their final 17 basho to give a measure of how they compare:

133 2Y 4J Akebono

84   2Y 3J Takanohana

118 4Y 3J Musashimaru

154  5Y 3J Asashoryu

149 3Y 2J Harumafuji

97   2Y 3J Kisenosato

106 4Y 1J Hakuho

105 3Y 2J Kakuryu

Given that both Asashoryu and Harumafuji's careers were cut off early for non-performance-related reasons, the average for the other four retired yokuzuna is 108.

That would suggest to me that if either Kakuryu or Hakuho miss the next tournament completely they will be in the range where retirement is practically certain. That's true for both of them, not just Kakuryu, the difference over these last three years is not numerically significant.

 

Your reasoning appears a bit skewed to me. Yes, if you take precisely the last 3 years, they are pretty even, but that seems like cherry picking when if you take less (the last two or one year(s)), then Hakuho is clearly dominant, and if we take the opposite path and go back further, we have then again utter Hakuho dominance. It basically comes down to Hakuho having a "bad" year in 2018 when Kakuryu had a better one, but that's neither the norm nor the way they have looked lastly.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Bombur
Forgotten word.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

On 27/11/2020 at 09:51, Fukuyamada said:

Whether or not an aging athlete dealing with injuries and/or surgeries are physically ready to compete at the highest level should increasingly depend on the assessment of sport medicine experts and physicians. I think YDC assessments make sense for the most part, but they generally seem to lack the information or understanding of that aspect of sports performance and have been rightly criticized for it over the years.

The YDC considers a lot more than just physical ability though. They’re there to determine if a Yokozuna is upholding the honour as well as the wrestling standards of the rank. Moreover, all the sports science in the world won’t mean a thing if the rikishi isn’t putting up the numbers. Stats don’t lie, as the saying goes.

[Kintamayama 45,495]

Something..

 

[Dapeng 236]

18 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

The YDC considers a lot more than just physical ability though. They’re there to determine if a Yokozuna is upholding the honour as well as the wrestling standards of the rank. Moreover, all the sports science in the world won’t mean a thing if the rikishi isn’t putting up the numbers. Stats don’t lie, as the saying goes.

Hakuho's performance in 2019 (51 wins and 2 Y) was probably the best among all makuuchi. His performance this year was affected by the Covid 19, in my opinion. With the current speed of spreading of the epidemic, the January basho will probably be canceled. By March they may have the vaccine and everything back to normal, including Hakuho and Kakuryu's performance on dohyo.

[Godango 1,014]

On 27/11/2020 at 23:54, kumoryu said:

The numbers in that table are really revealing. Interesting that you took the last four years, but if we take the last three calendar years (in this case, 17 basho) Hakuho and Kakuryu are practically even -- 106 wins v 105 wins over 17 basho....

...That would suggest to me that if either Kakuryu or Hakuho miss the next tournament completely they will be in the range where retirement is practically certain. That's true for both of them, not just Kakuryu, the difference over these last three years is not numerically significant.

 

 

On 28/11/2020 at 02:11, Bombur said:

Your reasoning appears a bit skewed to me. Yes, if you take precisely the last 3 years, they are pretty even, but that seems like cherry picking when if you take less (the last two or one year(s)), then Hakuho is clearly dominant, and if we take the opposite path and go back further, we have then again utter Hakuho dominance. It basically comes down to Hakuho having a "bad" year in 2018 when Kakuryu had a better one, but that's neither the norm nor the way they have looked lastly.

In fairness I chose four years at random; I could easily have chosen three.

2018 did surprise me though, but as @Bombur said, it's an outlier over time rather than an indicator of true performance.

All of this aside; I 100% agree that neither Yokozuna can afford to miss the next tournament entirely. For mine, it's basically this:

• Hakuho shows up in Jan and gets 10 wins? Let's get off his case for at least a couple of basho. 
• Kakuryu should arguably be gone already.

[Benevolance 2,508]

I mean, the YDC obviously issues edicts because that's their mandate. Fine. But, like, if those two retire, it's not magically going to make the current crop of candidates any better. It isn't going to magically make Mitakeumi unterrible, or give Terunofuji real knees. Hak and Kak are sitting out so much, the only thing actually stopping aspirants from getting the rope is that they all pretty much suck and don't yet deserve it. 

[Rocks 1,809]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Something.. 

Interesting, but I would have to disagree. I think the very fact that the YDC are not former rikishi is why they exist and what makes them valuable to sumo.  I would compare them to the Baseball Writers' Association of America and the Baseball Hall of Fame.  Almost none of which played professional baseball. Yes, there is the Veterans committee too but I would say sumo has that already in the Kyokai. If only veteran baseball players voted on the HOF guys like Pete Rose and all the dopers would likely get in. They can sympathize having faced the same pressures. But they broke the rules don't belong and it wouldn't be good for Baseball. Or maybe vote in guys that would have been worthy had their careers not been cut short due to injury.

The YDC, ostensibly, are looking out for SUMO, not rikishi. That is their function. now if they are being a little bit favorable to Japanese Yokozuna it's not right but it's hardly surprising. I'm sure many of the baseball writers got very tired of voting for NY Yankees all the time back in the day and tended to push their home town guys just a little bit more than they might have deserved. People are human after all.

[Asojima 2,874]

The YDC is a 'feel good' organization that exists to pontificate about the upper end of the sumo spectrum and make pronouncements about the concerns and decisions that the kyokai wants to promulgate.  It was founded in response to some unpopular yokozuna promotion decisions by the kyokai.  It has no power to control the Ozumo operations.  Its job is to provide a sense of legitimacy to the decisions that are made by the kyokai. 

The Baseball Writers and Hall of Fame exist to glorify the sport.  They have no control over baseball's management and operations.  Ditto the YDC.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Asojima

[themistyseas 242]

Thank you @Kintamayama for that video. Taking a slightly different approach, for me the key quote from Ken was that they make "recommendations based on impressions and ideologies that (do) not belong to the contemporary world."

It's interesting, because it's been said time and again that their job is to uphold historic values. But very few folks are willing to come out and say "yes but should they be doing that? Is that what people want?" (maybe it is).... So I at least appreciated that from Ken Mogi. You can also apply that tension between the way things have always been done and the contemporary world across the board... whether it's issues like broadcast rights, the way media is handled, etc.

(also....  he has a striking resemblance to Kyokutaisei)

[rzombie1988 159]

On 28/11/2020 at 16:19, Kintamayama said:

Ken's video

 

Racism accusations - I don't believe this is a race thing. Not that it matters. Once you start bring up that stuff, it's a dead end road that no one will ever find a happy solution to. The accusers will never be happy and the accused will never be able to do enough.

YDC not being health experts- Okay, the YDC are not health experts. That's a fair point.

Injury concerns  -  Hakuho did not declare that he was out until a few days before the tournament. And if that's the case, this clearly isn't a risking the career scenario. Hakuho has not completed 4 of the 6 tournaments in a year since 2016. 4 years ago. Whatever is up with him, it's been going on for years and does not seem likely to get any better. Does anyone see him completing all 6 tournaments in 2021 or 2022? I don't. The same applies to Kakuryu who only completed 4 whole tournaments once since 2016. If these guys had surgery and were out for long periods of time each run, it'd be a lot more understandable. It's just they have these injuries that they aren't getting surgery for or taking long recoveries for and it seems more like its just wear and tear or old age.

Edited November 29, 2020 by rzombie1988

[Eikokurai 3,437]

21 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I mean, the YDC obviously issues edicts because that's their mandate. Fine. But, like, if those two retire, it's not magically going to make the current crop of candidates any better. It isn't going to magically make Mitakeumi unterrible, or give Terunofuji real knees. Hak and Kak are sitting out so much, the only thing actually stopping aspirants from getting the rope is that they all pretty much suck and don't yet deserve it. 

All true but not especially relevant I feel. If I finish a project a week behind schedule and 10k over budget, pointing to a colleague who’s two weeks and 30k over won’t change my numbers. In other words, Hakuho and Kakuryu are judged against themselves and the standard of the rank only. Everyone else’s performances aren’t part of the equation.

[Asojima 2,874]

4 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

All true but not especially relevant I feel. If I finish a project a week behind schedule and 10k over budget, pointing to a colleague who’s two weeks and 30k over won’t change my numbers. In other words, Hakuho and Kakuryu are judged against themselves and the standard of the rank only. Everyone else’s performances aren’t part of the equation.

Hak and Kak are the dinosaurs of the Sumo business world.  They have kept the operation afloat for many years and have earned the right to die out on their own terms.