Ichidai toshiyori no more?

[Godango 996]

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said by others, but wow. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

Should this come to pass, I sincerely hope IT is eliminated forever, rather than brought back to life to be granted to the Japanese rikishi of a future generation who eclipses Hakuho's records.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

22 minutes ago, Houmanumi said:

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said by others, but wow. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

Should this come to pass, I sincerely hope IT is eliminated forever, rather than brought back to life to be granted to the Japanese rikishi of a future generation who eclipses Hakuho's records.

I was thinking about this — it could potentially come back to haunt them later — but perhaps those calling for this change have complete confidence that there will never be another Japanese dai-Yokozuna.

[Godango 996]

59 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I was thinking about this — it could potentially come back to haunt them later — but perhaps those calling for this change have complete confidence that there will never be another Japanese dai-Yokozuna.

You'd have to assume that's what they're thinking, which is insane. There was never going to be another Taiho.

[Gurowake 4,087]

1 hour ago, John Gunning said:

Not sure why they needed 51 pages to say as little of substance as they did.

The more you write, the more people think you put actual thought into it.  Even if you say the same things over and over.  That is, if you write more, the common conclusion is that you had more to say, even if what you said was of entirely the same substance as what was said before.  One can do many interesting things to make it sound like they are adding points to their argument without actually doing so.  I've come up with a wide variety of such methods, and I like to think of it as some sort of game to just see how long I can talk about nothing, or really, the same thing, over and over without anyone noticing.  While I'm not going to go 51 pages saying nothing in particular, I bet you've starting to get rather annoyed that I'm not actually adding anything of substance to my post and am just adding words that make it look at a glance that I had more to say than I actually did.  You hopefully stopped reading after that last sentence, but just in case you didn't, keep in mind that I could go on much further in the same way, but I'm only stopping here because I have a problem with typing for extended periods of time, and I really shouldn't be doing this much typing not at work, but anyway it's lots of fun to talk about nothing and make it seem like something of substance.

[Gurowake 4,087]

If they had to say "No more will be made because they're against what sumo's about" while having some still around, it would be an even weaker argument.  With Takanohana leaving, there aren't any more active ichidai toshiyori, so they can just close the books on the whole 50 years of the idea and leave it as a historic relic of a bygone age.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

25 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

The more you write, the more people think you put actual thought into it.  Even if you say the same things over and over.  That is, if you write more, the common conclusion is that you had more to say, even if what you said was of entirely the same substance as what was said before.  One can do many interesting things to make it sound like they are adding points to their argument without actually doing so.  I've come up with a wide variety of such methods, and I like to think of it as some sort of game to just see how long I can talk about nothing, or really, the same thing, over and over without anyone noticing.  While I'm not going to go 51 pages saying nothing in particular, I bet you've starting to get rather annoyed that I'm not actually adding anything of substance to my post and am just adding words that make it look at a glance that I had more to say than I actually did.  You hopefully stopped reading after that last sentence, but just in case you didn't, keep in mind that I could go on much further in the same way, but I'm only stopping here because I have a problem with typing for extended periods of time, and I really shouldn't be doing this much typing not at work, but anyway it's lots of fun to talk about nothing and make it seem like something of substance.

You’ve met my boss, I see. In fact, every Chinese boss. They love a two-hour meeting to cover 10-15 minutes of announcements.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

I'm devastated by the news, and it still boggles my mind how they spent 51 pages basically parroting ubiquitously and abundantly understood concepts about sumo, apart from the Hakuho bombshell. All this effort and expense to provide vapid "suggestions". It is really baffling how they thought that the strategy of creating insipid committees are going to save the sport. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Asashosakari 19,403]

A contrarian take:

The publication of this proposal at this specific time is a massive showing of disrespect to Hakuho by the council members, no doubt about that. But this thing is also so completely irrelevant to the actual fan experience of sumo that the hysterical reactions of the last 24 hours are rather hilarious to me. Reddit has people doubting that they will remain sumo fans over this! I shudder to think how much worse it must be on Facebook and Twitter. It's on par with people breathlessly debating the merits of Harry and Meghan keeping or losing their royal titles.

Nobody except Hakuho is actually affected by this, and if the guy who rewrote nearly the entire record book and earned millions of dollars in the process actually required an ultimately meaningless award* for his emotional well-being, I wouldn't know what to say, so I hope he's taking this better than fans are. Go build up political support, become rijicho in 10 to 15 years, and then he can make a grand show of re-instituting ichidai-toshiyori for the next dai-yokozuna if it's truly important to have it exist.

* Ultimately meaningless if given only because it "has to be", that is.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

46 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

A contrarian take:

The publication of this proposal at this specific time is a massive showing of disrespect to Hakuho by the council members, no doubt about that. But this thing is also so completely irrelevant to the actual fan experience of sumo that the hysterical reactions of the last 24 hours are rather hilarious to me. Reddit has people doubting that they will remain sumo fans over this! I shudder to think how much worse it must be on Facebook and Twitter. It's on par with people breathlessly debating the merits of Harry and Meghan keeping or losing their royal titles.

Nobody except Hakuho is actually affected by this, and if the guy who rewrote nearly the entire record book and earned millions of dollars in the process actually required an ultimately meaningless award* for his emotional well-being, I wouldn't know what to say, so I hope he's taking this better than fans are. Go build up political support, become rijicho in 10 to 15 years, and then he can make a grand show of re-instituting ichidai-toshiyori for the next dai-yokozuna if it's truly important to have it exist.

* Ultimately meaningless if given only because it "has to be", that is.

It does give me a bit of comfort that at least Hak took it well (if the Magaki acquisition) was to counteract this. I agree - it’s a sad thing but never declaring to never be a sumo fan again is a little much. 

[Jakusotsu 5,981]

6 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

...to be granted to the Japanese rikishi of a future generation who eclipses Hakuho's records.

[Seiyashi 4,097]

How far are the board required to consider the report? If they come to the conclusion that it's a stupid ass report, could they elect to ignore it? 

[Godango 996]

55 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

I almost threw in the word 'hypothetical'.

[Karasukurai 166]

I'm no fan of Hak but the guy is the best there has ever been. This is a calculated personal slight and would never have happened if he had been Japanese. On the up side, I think he knew it was coming hence his negotiations for elder stock; also, I'm hoping that this whole episode stokes the fire and that Hak becomes a right pain in the ass to JSA in the coming years - that'll be entertainment for us all.

[Kintamayama 45,161]

Has anyone here actually read the 50 pages? I sincerely doubt it. For all we know there could be a lot of meaningful suggestions on how to better sumo. There's the kosho thing which certainly is a step in the right direction. There probably are a few more interesting suggestions. We are totally lost in the IT thing, it seems. Maybe someone can actually read all they wrote and tell us what it says before we categorically call the 50 pages a load of repetitive crap? 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Kintamayama

[RabidJohn 1,793]

Mr Gould's take on things: Hakuho to be denied honorary elder stock - YouTube

Edit: The comments have been turned off since I watched it last night... 
Must've been getting really hilarious for YT to go that far!

Edited April 20, 2021 by RabidJohn

[Akinomaki 40,601]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

How far are the board required to consider the report? If they come to the conclusion that it's a stupid ass report, could they elect to ignore it? 

My impression is that the council somehow got told that this kind of suggestion would be much appreciated, because in all the 2 years the council was discussing things, the point of IT was never mentioned. I expect the rijikai to acknowledge the suggestion as meaningful and announce to the press that they will grant no more IT anymore.

The rijikai can't make any decision on this, because as the report correctly states, there is no system of ichidai toshiyori that exists and needs to be abolished. It has only become a customary practice to grant IT after 20 yusho as a special gift to Takanohana.

In each case the rijikai has to make a special decision out of the rules to exceptionally grant an IT status. They will simply cease to make those exceptional decisions, which the fans have grown used to.

[Akinomaki 40,601]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Has anyone here actually read the 50 pages? I sincerely doubt it. For all we know there could be a lot of meaningful suggestions on how to better sumo. There's the kosho thing which certainly is a step in the right direction. There probably are a few more interesting suggestions. We are totally lost in the IT thing, it seems. Maybe someone can actually read all they wrote and tell us what it says before we categorically call the 50 pages a load of repetitive crap? 

I think I will read it today. As I said the IT question has never been mentioned before, so it is only a small but the most important detail in the report: http://sumo.or.jp/img/kyokai/information/yushikisha20210419.pdf

[Tigerboy1966 1,449]

15 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"We have to think of a new kosho system that is more fitting for the Reiwa era," she suggested.

Thanks for the translation, but can someone more familiar with the Japanese mode of expression have a guess at what this actually means? Is kosho coming back?

Maybe it will come back with restrictions like one kosho allowed in a career? Or no second kosho for 5 years after the first? Or kosho being treated as the equivalent of a 7-8 MK?

[RabidJohn 1,793]

I greatly doubt this is anything other than the fruition of a very long-term plan - and it's not all about Hakuho.

I imagine Takanohana had already caused a general "we've made a rod for our own back" feeling in the Kyokai, compounded by consternation at the thought of having to give an IT to Asashoryu. They managed to dodge that bullet, but then bad-boy Hakuho went and broke Taiho's record, which came along with his frequent dame-oshi, pushing Ichinojo's face after the bout, refusing to mount the dohyo to acknowledge a loss, being a party to the events that led to Takanoiwa's hospital visit, leading an unauthorised banzai clap...

I get it. I really do. They're more than happy to have Hakuho join their ranks as Magaki>Miyagino-oyakata, but they want to put the name with all its attendant glory in the past where they can view it with rose-tinted specs.

When you get down to it, Jinmaku>Kokonoe was more valuable than Chiyonofuji-oyakata, so I also doubt Hakuho is too badly miffed.

Edited April 20, 2021 by RabidJohn

[Kintamayama 45,161]

29 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Thanks for the translation, but can someone more familiar with the Japanese mode of expression have a guess at what this actually means? Is kosho coming back?

Maybe it will come back with restrictions like one kosho allowed in a career? Or no second kosho for 5 years after the first? Or kosho being treated as the equivalent of a 7-8 MK?

I stake my reputation, tattered as it may be these days, that some sort of kosho system will be put in place very soon. It's not a mode of expression- the lady suggested  to bring back kosho-simple as that. Taking into consideration that we haven't had jungyos for a year (taking a lot of pressure off the rikishi physically), the number of serious injuries seems to have grown lately. Kosho NOW!!

[Kintamayama 45,161]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Mr Gould's take on things: Hakuho to be denied honorary elder stock - YouTube

Edit: The comments have been turned off since I watched it last night... 
Must've been getting really hilarious for YT to go that far!

Comments are usually turned off by the uploader. And, well.. OK, nothing.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Kintamayama

[dada78641 884]

6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

The publication of this proposal at this specific time is a massive showing of disrespect to Hakuho by the council members, no doubt about that. But this thing is also so completely irrelevant to the actual fan experience of sumo that the hysterical reactions of the last 24 hours are rather hilarious to me. Reddit has people doubting that they will remain sumo fans over this! I shudder to think how much worse it must be on Facebook and Twitter. It's on par with people breathlessly debating the merits of Harry and Meghan keeping or losing their royal titles.
Nobody except Hakuho is actually affected by this, and if the guy who rewrote nearly the entire record book and earned millions of dollars in the process actually required an ultimately meaningless award* for his emotional well-being, I wouldn't know what to say, so I hope he's taking this better than fans are.

I get what you are saying, and you're right, but I think this is missing the point. The point is that this is just another example of how a small cadre of elites can just arbitrarily decide things like this regardless of what fans think or what's fair. That's the really detestable aspect of it, more so than specifically the consequences of Hakuho being denied ichidai toshiyori, which really aren't that great.

More importantly than this toshiyori business is, for example, the fact that nobody professionally associated with sumo has been allowed to use social media for over a year now, because one of them said something stupid once. Wrestlers aren't allowed to drive, because one of them caused an accident once. All decided by a bunch of old guys in opaque, secretive meetings, dropped like a bombshell without any option for debate or recourse. For me this is even kind of personal because a friend of mine hasn't even been allowed to use his private Facebook since the ban. Is that fair? Is that a good thing for sumo?

Actually, the ichidai toshiyori being of little actual consequences kind of makes it more of a slap in Hakuho's face, because it's not like the kyokai loses anything by granting it, either. They don't have an actual concrete argument against it on grounds of it being bad for the sport in any way, but they're doing it anyway.

Sure, people are being overly dramatic when they're saying they'll stop being fans, but at the same time if you don't understand their frustration then I don't know what to tell you.

[nagora 88]

9 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

a friend of mine hasn't even been allowed to use his private Facebook since the ban. Is that fair? Is that a good thing for sumo?

That's a difficult question. It depends on what you mean by "sumo". If you mean the bouts, then no - it's irrelevant. If you mean is it a good thing in relation to why people watch Sumo as opposed to American Wrastlin' or something else then maybe it is. Maybe the fact that Sumo is a closed world is part of the reason people are attracted to it. The air of mystery and of the samurai spirit is, AFAICT, part of why even Japanese people watch it - still more why foreigners do.

Sumo Wrestling - the bouts - doesn't need anything other than a circle drawn in the dirt. Sumo is more than that. How much more? That's a fairly arbitrary thing and simply "giving the fans what they want" doesn't always work out in the long run.

[Nantonoyama 252]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Nobody except Hakuho is actually affected by this

I generally agree with what you wrote, but let's not forget that someone(s) will not get a chance to be oyakata, or to loan a temporary share before acquiring one post-career. This, to me, is more important and more consequential to the life trajectory of people that Hakuho being disrespected (whatever it means). He is gonna be an oyakata anyway.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I stake my reputation, tattered as it may be these days, that some sort of kosho system will be put in place very soon. It's not a mode of expression- the lady suggested  to bring back kosho-simple as that. Taking into consideration that we haven't had jungyos for a year (taking a lot of pressure off the rikishi physically), the number of serious injuries seems to have grown lately. Kosho NOW!!

I get that the previous kosho system was exploited and would like it if, it was brought back, to have minor adjustments. But yes, a injury management system is long overdue. Rikishi need it now!