Controversial Non-Promotions

[Godango 1,014]

As someone who only became a full-time sumo fan 3-4 years ago, I often go on weird historical sumo rabbit-holes. This is one of them.

Now, I know promotion rules are open to interpretation by design, but I was looking at Takanohana's career record, and noticed that early in his Ozeki career he went 14-1 Y and 13-2 D in consecutive tournaments (Natsu & Nagoya '93).

That seems to pretty easily satisfy the consecutive yusho/equivalent rule I would have thought, and would have given them a hot young Japanese yokozuna to rival Akebono so much sooner -- was anyone around back then you could provide some insight on why they didn't pull the trigger?

A few reasons I can think of:

• Losing the play-off TO Akebono in Nagoya (but he beat him in regulation in both tournaments)
• Still being young in his Ozeki career.
• Wanting a Japanese yokozuna to seem strong by winning the two consecutive tournaments

Anything more to this? And anymore close calls that seemed like they should have gotten the rope (or Ozeki), but didn't? I get that it's hardly the most exciting topic given current events, but still.

[Churaumi 745]

It really just comes down to the whims of the Kyokai. At that time, they may have still been wary of promoting unworthy yokozuna. Look up Futahaguro for details if you don't already know that story.

[yohcun 401]

Yeah, they were much stricter immediately following Futahaguro. Asahifuji also had to wait longer than he otherwise might've, before he was able to win two yusho consecutively.

But let's not forget the king of overlooked yokozuna candidates.

Edited May 20, 2021 by yohcun

[Gurowake 4,100]

Hakuho could also have easily been promoted with his strong finish after his first yusho, especially given that those followed two other 13 win tournaments, but wasn't for (I assume) the same reasons - they were still being extra cautious, and Hakuho was pretty young.  I seem to recall some people were kinda annoyed when Kakuryu was promoted without two actual yusho since everyone since Futahaguro needed 2 actual yusho in a row even though Kisenosato had been tsunatori after 13 wins multiple times before, but hey, being Japanese matters to some people.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

1 hour ago, yohcun said:

But let's not forget the king of overlooked yokozuna candidates

This was a pretty different era, though. Yokozuna was more of a political horse trading exercise then compared to the results - based version we know today. 

[Godango 1,014]

Ahhh I didn't connect the dots that it wasn't that far removed from Futahaguro. That makes a lot of sense now. 

No reacts but I'm enjoying the conversation, cheers all.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 hours ago, Godango said:

And anymore close calls that seemed like they should have gotten the rope (or Ozeki), but didn't?

Takanohana’s case was mostly down to residual concerns from the Kitao/Futahaguro debacle, as others have stated.

Other rejections that were either controversial or arguably undeserved include:

Konishiki: From May 1991 to March 1992 he put up a record of 14-1D, 12-3JY, 11-4, 13-2Y, 12-3, 13-2Y. Many thought that was enough for the rope but he didn’t get it and never came close again, which of course many felt vindicated the decision.

Kaio: The most winningest Ozeki of all time with 5 yusho. He never managed a consistent enough stretch to force the Kyokai’s hand, but I expect he’d be promoted today without hesitation. His record was certainly better than Kisenosato’s.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Eikokurai

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

"Controversial" is often basically synonymous to "borderline cases". You already pointed to the right direction by throwing Kisenosato to the mix, which is the same thing just from the other side. Politics and such.

Notes (without verifying anything much): Konishiki was unfortunate to post his imperfect run at a time when Futahaguro was still fresh AND it was not even commonly accepted that foreigners should be Yokozuna at all. This was only established when Akebono did his double yusho, while the banzuke was devoid of any Yok.

Kaio probably missed the promotion by one or two bouts. Just like some guys just about missed Ozeki. So Kaio represents the absolute top of being Ozeki without progress, like, say, Wakanosato was the maximum Sekiwake.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

Chiyonoyama, back to back yusho to start his ozeki career, not promoted as deemed too young and immature at 23. That would be very strange nowadays, but the high ranks did skew relatively old during that era. Apparently also the victim of circumstances beyond his control at the time, as yokozuna Maedayama had just been forced into retirement, the other three incumbents at the rank were performing less than spectacularly and the yokozuna rank underwent a bit of a reputational crisis. (Also not a logic that would hold up today, where they would probably be thrilled to have a strong young new yokozuna in that situation.)

And even earlier Tamanishiki, not promoted after three consecutive yusho. Not an age thing in that case as he was already 27, but rather a mix of him having a confrontational personality and bullshit politics.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

And even earlier Tamanishiki, not promoted after three consecutive yusho. Not an age thing in that case as he was already 27, but rather a mix of him having a confrontational personality and bullshit politics.

Probably worth pointing out that Tamanishiki's promotion was under the "discretionary" award by the House of Yoshida Tsukasa and not the promotion criteria we're familiar with today, unlike Chiyonoyama.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

17 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

confrontational personality and bullshit politics.

Question: do you mean that he had "bullshit politics", or did the Sumo association use "bullshit politics"?  I know he was around during the Shunjuen Incident; is that what was involved?

[Godango 1,014]

18 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Chiyonoyama, back to back yusho to start his ozeki career, not promoted as deemed too young and immature at 23.

This is a super interesting one, particularly given his actual promotion came after an 8-7, 14-1 Y. Very odd.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

Question: do you mean that he had "bullshit politics", or did the Sumo association use "bullshit politics"?  I know he was around during the Shunjuen Incident; is that what was involved?

The bullshit politics, to my knowledge, were that his abrasiveness was particularly upsetting to some people from the dominant Dewanoumi group who thus did their best to block his promotion. The Shunjuen incident (in the year after his series of yusho) was a big hit to their power base since it was primarily supported by rikishi from their group, and Tamanishiki, a top ozeki regardless of the non-promotion, came to be seen as a big name the Association needed to show gratitude to for having stuck with them. He would soon become head of Nishonoseki-beya while still active with the explicit plan of building a stable group to rival Dewanoumi and ultimately break their supremacy.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,651]

38 minutes ago, Godango said:

This is a super interesting one, particularly given his actual promotion came after an 8-7, 14-1 Y. Very odd.

Keep in mind that this was still before the two-yusho baseline for promotions came into being via the establishment of the YDC in 1958. Promotions were certainly largely merit-based by that point in time (and the aforementioned involvement of the House of Tsukasa was almost entirely ceremonial, AFAIK), but both Chiyonoyama's initial non-promotion and then the promotion after his third yusho were technically in line with the vague framework that was then in place. But the non-promotion was definitely seen as a controversial decision, not least because the knock on other yokozuna promotions around that era was that the rikishi weren't strong enough (the early 1950s reputational crisis I mentioned), so Chiyonoyama's back-to-back yusho made a case that was at least a clear equal of what the other yokozuna had had to achieve, if not superior.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Asashosakari

[kosomo 32]

Not sure if this is covered in another thread, but is it likely/unlikely/certain that Terunofuji is promoted to Yokozuna if he wins the yusho this time? That's 2 yusho in a row, but does it matter if the first yusho was not while he was an ozeki? Is that a "requirement"?

If he's not promoted with a yusho win, I assume that it would just take a JY in july right?

what about the scenario that a rank/file wins consuective yusho, or something crazy like a 3 in a row yusho win from m16, that isn't even an ozeki by the time the 3rd win comes around? 

Fun hypotheticals :) 

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

Just now, kosomo said:

Not sure if this is covered in another thread, but is it likely/unlikely/certain that Terunofuji is promoted to Yokozuna if he wins the yusho this time?

Best laugh of today.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

2 minutes ago, kosomo said:

Not sure if this is covered in another thread, but is it likely/unlikely/certain that Terunofuji is promoted to Yokozuna if he wins the yusho this time? That's 2 yusho in a row, but does it matter if the first yusho was not while he was an ozeki? Is that a "requirement"?

If he's not promoted with a yusho win, I assume that it would just take a JY in july right?

what about the scenario that a rank/file wins consuective yusho, or something crazy like a 3 in a row yusho win from m16, that isn't even an ozeki by the time the 3rd win comes around? 

Fun hypotheticals :) 

You might want to take a look at either the main basho thread or the promotions thread.

[kosomo 32]

okay - after some digging through the other posts seems like the requirement is 2 wins AT Ozeki. so if somehow he gets the promo this time it'd be an exception. and my other hypotheticals are "no's" no matter how impressive. 

[Masunofuji 36]

Moti really needs to watch it with the April Fools threads...

[Yamanashi 3,903]

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Best laugh of today.

aaaaaaand the chaser ... Why, are you a Moderator?