Endless Romanization discussion (split from Juryo promotees for July 2021)

[Jomangor 29]

1 hour ago, Atenzan said:

Eh- many languages have approximately the same five vowels Japanese has. Spanish and Greek certainly do, so does Italian. There are still other languages, such as Hindi/Urdu, which have those five vowels alongside five corresponding long vowels, but with the same a/i/u/e/o romanisation we use for Japanese. The long vowels are usually romanised aa/ee/oo/ai/au.

For the record, Italian has seven vowel sounds, which is certainly covered by your 'approximately', but the two 'e' and two 'o' sounds can add to some subtle confusion.

 

[Asashosakari 19,648]

5 hours ago, Morning said:

For example, romaji transcription to get a German speaker to use the approximately correct pronunciation is different than the one used to get an approximately correct pronunciation for English speakers. Just try Tobizaru on a German who doesn't know how to pronounce English transcriptions and Japanese and has only that transcription. They'll be going with Tobitsaru. To get it almost right you'd have to go with Tobisaru. Forget about getting that voiced s in.

The source of an old in-joke on the German forum where Takekaze would occasionally be connected to cats, because mispronouncing -kaze with a standard German z sound renders it very close to Katze. (And that was heard for some time on the German Eurosport broadcasts...was it Alexander von der Groeben or one of his occasional fill-ins who did that?)

That being said, at least that part of romaji really isn't that difficult to handle for German speakers; it's not hard to remember that the s and z sounds are more or less reversed. But sure, people who don't know about it at all are liable to mispronounce it...perhaps most commonly heard in sports here in biathlon in recent years, where multiple commentators were routinely mangling the name of husband/wife duo Tachizaki.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Koorifuu 1,020]

On 31/05/2021 at 10:33, Jomangor said:

For the record, Italian has seven vowel sounds, which is certainly covered by your 'approximately', but the two 'e' and two 'o' sounds can add to some subtle confusion.

 

I can think of at least 11 vowel sounds in European Portuguese.

A -> 3 (a, ã, æ)

E -> 4 (e, ε, i) 

I -> 1 (i)

O- > 4 (o, u, õ, ɒ)

U-> 1 (u)
 

That's going to add up to 13 but two of the sounds were repeated.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Koorifuu

[Yamanashi 3,903]

Let's cut the Gordian knot, and decide to use the International Phonetic Alphabet whenever we deal with these issues; after all, it is the standard devised by linguists and lexicographers.  Besides, ðɛə(ɹ) wʊd biː ˈfjuː məˈsteɪks ɪn trænsˈkrɪpʃən.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

56 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Let's cut the Gordian knot, and decide to use the International Phonetic Alphabet whenever we deal with these issues; after all, it is the standard devised by linguists and lexicographers.  Besides, ðɛə(ɹ) wʊd biː ˈfjuː məˈsteɪks ɪn trænsˈkrɪpʃən.

But a shiteload of typos! 

[Benevolance 2,510]

As your colourful Canadian neighbour, let me speak with candour: I favour adding the extra u. 

[Yamanashi 3,903]

4 hours ago, Benevolance said:

As your colourful Canadian neighbour, let me speak with candour: I favour adding the extra u. 

Yeah!  That's what I'm talkin' abōt.

My wife and I just watched the documentary "World War II in Colour", and I couldn't help thinking "oh, how fancy!"

Edited June 3, 2021 by Yamanashi

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Shouldn’t this thread go in Off Topic now it’s no longer about Ozumo?

[Benevolance 2,510]

Iut's toutally stiull about sumou, though. Moustly houw frusturating iut caun beu truying tou roumanize wrestlurs. 

[Benevolance 2,510]

Actually, this reminds me of the last time I attended a live sumo event. On this day, we were up in the nose bleeds. Usually, it's all old guys and we'd drink their smuggled moonshine and I'd share my whisky, and I'd tell them how awesome Ikioi is and we'd all cheer him on incoherently. But on this one occasion there was a young couple sitting near us, which was odd, because I thought the minimum requirements to attend a sumo event was 60 years plus or being a foreigner. Anyway, this couple obviously didn't attend or watch sumo regularly, because when we got up into juryo, I finally realized that a lot of their conversation was actually the two of them trying to puzzle out the wrestlers names. And, well, telling me to stop feeding my kid the fish jerky the old men were sharing, which my kid totally did not appreciate being told. When I realized this, I of course dug out my copy of the banzuke from my back pack - written entirely in romaji for dumb foreigners - and gave it over to them! And suddenly their sumo experience improved by at least 3% and years later Japan built a statue for me in Kumamoto to commemorate the event. I mean, the statue doesn't really look a lot like me, and they spelled my name Monkey D Luffy instead of Lance, but it's close enough. I accept their gratitude with a humble heart. 

[sahaven111 178]

19 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Shouldn’t this thread go in Off Topic now it’s no longer about Ozumo?

doun't you mean ouzoumou?

[Seiyashi 4,108]

Well, now that we seem to be adding Us for the sake of it....

[Kintamayama 45,503]

2 hours ago, sahaven111 said:

doun't you mean ouzoumou?

Actually, oouzumou.

[Asojima 2,874]

Since this is never ending and the Chinese forum would romanize the shikona in pinyin, here is the current banzuke:

BaiPeng	Y
ChaoNaiShan	O1	GuijingSheng
ZhengDai	O2	ZhaoNoFuji
GaoAn	S	LongNoSheng
YuYoHai	K	DaRongXiang
RuoLongJing	M1	BeiShengFuJi
MingSheng	M2	XiangYuan
BiShan	M3	QianDaiNoGuo
WuMaShan	M4	MiYiLong
FengShengLong	M5	EwuXiao
RuoNaHai	M6	YiNoCheng
LiNoShin	M7	BaoFuJi
JianXiang	M8	YuanTeng
ZhiMoNoHai	M9	Hui
YuJiu	M10	ZhaoQiang
QinNoRuo	M11	QianDaiXiangMa
QinHuiGuang	M12	YinQiNoHai
MingLaiShan	M13	DaYanMei
YanDian	M14	QianDaiDaLong
Quesan	M15	CuiFuJi
ShiPu	M16	QianDaiWan
TianKungHai	M17

Don't worry.  It will become more familiar to you after a year or two.  

[Kamitsuumi 402]

OK admittedly the original Chinese forum idea was quite tongue in cheek, but all this pinyin talk is confusing me: why would a Chinese forum not go with Chinese characters? The caveat I had in mind were more along the variants and simplified/traditional/shinjitai split, for example 御嶽海 vs 御岳海, 大栄翔 vs 大荣翔 vs 大榮翔.

[Asojima 2,874]

36 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

The caveat I had in mind were more along the variants and simplified/traditional/shinjitai split, for example 御嶽海 vs 御岳海, 大栄翔 vs 大荣翔 vs 大榮翔.

I vote for all traditional.  This dog is too old to learn all of that simplified crap.  If traditional is good enough for the Japanese, it is good enough for me.  

[Kamitsuumi 402]

5 minutes ago, Asojima said:

If traditional is good enough for the Japanese, it is good enough for me.  

Well it evidently wasn't good enough, which is how we ended up with shinjitai, jōyō (and tōyō) kanji, and the little-known kanji spelling reform.

[sahaven111 178]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Actually, oouzumou.

thanks this is "SO" much better

[Seiyashi 4,108]

4 hours ago, Asojima said:

Since this is never ending and the Chinese forum would romanize the shikona in pinyin, here is the current banzuke

At the risk of being pedantic there's a number of errors. Not least FuJi ought to be FuShi, and some other words are a little off. 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 hours ago, Asojima said:

I vote for all traditional.  This dog is too old to learn all of that simplified crap.  If traditional is good enough for the Japanese, it is good enough for me.  

Japanese uses a mix of traditional and its own simplified characters. For example, it retains the traditional kanji for vehicle (車) but uses a simplified character for country (国, not 國).

[Eikokurai 3,437]

4 hours ago, Asojima said:

Since this is never ending and the Chinese forum would romanize the shikona in pinyin, here is the current banzuke:

BaiPeng	Y
ChaoNaiShan	O1	GuijingSheng
ZhengDai	O2	ZhaoNoFuji
GaoAn	S	LongNoSheng
YuYoHai	K	DaRongXiang
RuoLongJing	M1	BeiShengFuJi
MingSheng	M2	XiangYuan
BiShan	M3	QianDaiNoGuo
WuMaShan	M4	MiYiLong
FengShengLong	M5	EwuXiao
RuoNaHai	M6	YiNoCheng
LiNoShin	M7	BaoFuJi
JianXiang	M8	YuanTeng
ZhiMoNoHai	M9	Hui
YuJiu	M10	ZhaoQiang
QinNoRuo	M11	QianDaiXiangMa
QinHuiGuang	M12	YinQiNoHai
MingLaiShan	M13	DaYanMei
YanDian	M14	QianDaiDaLong
Quesan	M15	CuiFuJi
ShiPu	M16	QianDaiWan
TianKungHai	M17

Don't worry.  It will become more familiar to you after a year or two.  

There’s a couple of non-pinyin romanizations in there: ‘no’ and ‘kung’.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

There’s a couple of non-pinyin romanizations in there: ‘no’ and ‘kung’.

I would substitute "no" with "de" as a calque, since that's the net effect of turning it into pinyin this way. "Yo" isn't pinyin either, and there's also other errors beyond "fuji"/"fushi". Kaisei's shikona also isn't properly split.

Although this has made me sympathise with Kintamayama, because I had the devil's own time trying to figure out Takakeisho's shikona without the correct tone marks. I read it as gui4jing1sheng4 instead of the proper gui4jing3sheng4 and that threw me completely off.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

What absolutely no one asked for: the Pinyin banzuke with tone marks and given names!

Dōng	Wèi	Xī
BáiPéng Xiáng	HéngGāng
ZhāoNǎiShān YīngShù	DàGuān	GuìJǐngShèng GuāngXìn
ZhèngDài ZhíYě	DàGuān	ZhàoDèFùShì ChūnXióng
GāoĀn Huàng	GuānXié	LóngDèShèng ShēnMǐng
YùYuèHǎi JiǔSī	XiǎoJié	DàRóngXiáng YǒngRén
RuòLóngJǐng Wò	QiánTóuYī	BěiShèngFùShì DàHuī
MíngShēng Lì	QiánTóuÈr	XiángYuán ZhèngYě
BìShān GènYòu	QiánTóuSān	QiānDàiDèGuó XiànHuī
WùMǎShān TiěXióng	QiánTóuSì	MiàoYìLóng TàiChéng
FēngShēngLóng ZhìShèng	QiánTóuWǔ	ĀWǔXiào KuíYě
YīngNáiHǎi TàYě	QiánTóuLiù	YìDèChéng Jùn
LìDèXīn GāngShǐ	QiánTóuQī	BǎoFùShì DàFǔ
JiànXiáng TáoTàiLáng	QiánTóuBā	YuǎnTéng ShèngDà
ZhìMāDèHǎi HángYáng	QiánTóuJiǔ	Huī DàShì
YùJiù YīLáng	QiánTóuShí	ZhàoQiáng XiángHuī
QínDèRuò JiéTài	QiánTóuShíYī	QiānDàiXiángMǎ FùShìXióng
QínHuìGuāng ChōngXiàn	QiánTóuShíÈr	YǐnQíDèHǎi Bù
MíngLàiShān GuāngYàn	QiánTóuShíSān	DàYānMěi YuánGuī
LóngDiàn GāngZhì	QiánTóuShíSì	QiānNiánDàLóng XiùZhèng
KuíShèng YīLáng	QiánTóuShíWǔ	CuìFùShì YīChéng
ShíPǔ LùJiè	QiánTóuShíLiù	QiānDàiWán YīShù
TiānKōngHǎi XiángMǎ	QiánTóuShíQī

Some notes:

• Tone marks in pinyin are a bit like Japanese pitch-based enunciation, except it presents a bit more as melisma over a single word than a string of words.
• Chinese also has potential multiple pronunciations for a single character - so the "asa" in "Asanoyama" can be pronounced as either "zhāo" or "cháo" (with different tones, so they don't 100% rhyme). This is particularly relevant in Shimanoumi's case, where there are two readings of the second kanji in his shikona; I've chosen to go with "Mā" to maintain the closest approximation to the Shima Islands.
• The "tochi" prefix from Kasugano does not have a Chinese pronunciation. It is however present in Cantonese, which I've backtranslated into Chinese to derive a pronunciation; however, as Chinese and Cantonese don't have a 1-1 pronunciation relationship (i.e. it is much more irregular than trying to derive Chinese pronunciation from on'yomi reading), that value is approximate.
• As Eikokurai has pointed out, the common connector "no" doesn't have a Chinese equivalent. The closest in meaning is "dè", meaning "of", but it does sort of ruin the feel of the name.
• Tobizaru has the same given name as Shodai. So do Tamawashi and Kaisei as each other.
• Some given names have interesting meanings. Kiribayama's means "iron male", Endo's means "great holiness", Chiyonokuni's means "shining law" etcetc. 
• Tsurugisho's given name is a bit of a homophonic joke in Chinese (where a lot of wordplay revolves around words that sound like other words) - without characters, his given name sounds like "Eliminated Boy" (it actually means more like Peach Firstborn).
• My personal favourite shikona in Chinese are Takakeisho and Myogiryu. Kotoeko, Chiyotairyu, and Akua aren't too bad either. Onosho's just sounds weird.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Eikokurai 3,437]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

I would substitute "no" with "de" as a calque, since that's the net effect of turning it into pinyin this way. "Yo" isn't pinyin either, and there's also other errors beyond "fuji"/"fushi". Kaisei's shikona also isn't properly split.

Although this has made me sympathise with Kintamayama, because I had the devil's own time trying to figure out Takakeisho's shikona without the correct tone marks. I read it as gui4jing1sheng4 instead of the proper gui4jing3sheng4 and that threw me completely off.

Ah, yes, I didn’t see those ones, and I missed that the ‘no’ is the Japanese noun possessive marker. That actually does get used from time to time in Chinese, though more for style and a fashion thing.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Kintamayama 45,503]

Hello? Am I having a stroke? Wow.,