Kosho Seido 公傷制度 - Bad translation of "public injury system"?

[Hidenotora 82]

Hi all, just a quick question about the kosho seido system.

The translation for this term is often given as "public injury system", but I never understood why it was called that: what was "public" about it?
A while back though, I had it pointed out that kosho (or koushou/kōshō as it actually is)  公傷 means "occupational injury" in Japanese.
As seen here in Jisho: https://jisho.org/search/公傷
It's defined in the 大辞林 as "公務中に負ったけが。" ("an injury sustained while on-duty"),
and translated in the Widsom Japanese-English Dictionary as "an injury at work ; an industrial injury ; an injury suffered while on duty."

So it seems like "public injury" is just a calque of 公傷 (public + injury), and a better English translation then would be "occupational injury system" right?
But on thinking about it, I thought that maybe the "public" aspect here means that the injury has been announced publicly (as opposed to a rikishi who is injured but has not mentioned it to the press or gotten a medical note for it), which is a possible meaning of 公. Does anyone know if this is the case?

There's some linguistic and maybe cultural differences here to how the word 公/"public" is interpreted in English and Japanese, but "public injury system" sounds awkward to me. It sounds like it refers to "an injury obtained in public", which 公傷 sort of implies, but a "public injury" in English sounds like it means an injury that was obtained in a public place, ie. outside walking down the street. Getting injured at work doing your job and getting injured just being out on the streets in a public space are two very different concepts.
Of course it could mean "a system for injuries that have been made public", that is "officially announced" and certified by a medical note rather than just limping into the dohyo to try and desperately save your rank, and the term just so happens to share kanji and meaning with the word we'd translate to English as "occupational injury" (an injury incurred while doing your job; a rikishi's job is sumo, and that's how they received the injury presumably, though this leaves the question open as to if a rikishi injured outside the dohyo and was then too injured to fight would be eligible for the kosho seido system)

Hopefully some better Japanese speakers or natives, or just people who understand kosho seido better can weigh in on this aspect of things. The "public injury system" definition is given on the English Wikipedia page and is then copied verbatim by other websites, which just spreads this potentially incorrect (or at least "inelegant") translation. If it's wrong I'll edit the wiki page and hopefully the knowledge will propagate from there!

Thanks in advance!

[Naganoyama 5,945]

The injury had to be sustained on the dohyo during a honbasho bout to qualify. Injuries in training were not covered. Hence public rather than occupational.

[Hidenotora 82]

I see, so it really is "public" injury system? Even though it uses the same word in Japanese for "occupational injury?"
It seems like something that's really difficult to find any evidence for either way, short of an "official" romanisation. I'd be interested in any other comments, maybe people who've been watching long enough can remember reports or media from the time that used the term?

[Asashosakari 19,606]

13 hours ago, Hidenotora said:

I see, so it really is "public" injury system? Even though it uses the same word in Japanese for "occupational injury?"
It seems like something that's really difficult to find any evidence for either way, short of an "official" romanisation. I'd be interested in any other comments, maybe people who've been watching long enough can remember reports or media from the time that used the term?

I don't think the Kyokai ever had an official English term for it. The closest I'm able to find are a handful of banzuke topics pages from 2002/2003, in which the effect of the kosho system is referred to as "official absence due to a recognized injury" and slight variations thereof (sometimes leaving out "official" and sometimes "recognized"). But that's at best semi-official, as I'm reasonably sure whoever the Kyokai was employing to translate those pages at the time didn't have much guidance in what terms to use.

Keep in mind that "public injury system" as a term dates from a time when English-language coverage of sumo was assumed to be targeted almost completely at total laymen, which gave us gems like this (emphasis mine):

Quote

Hawaii-born yokozuna (grand champion) Akebono stayed tied for the lead in the Nagoya Grand Sumo tournament Friday, pushing winless maegashira No. 2 Toki out of the ring in just seconds to improve to 6-0.

Lower-ranked No. 13 maegashira (senior wrestler) Wakanoyama is the only other wrestler to remain undefeated, after pushing out No. 11 maegashira Terao (3-3).

One victory behind at 5-1 are six wrestlers, including the two other yokozunas competing in the 15-day tournament -- Musashimaru, or Fiamalu Penitani from Hawaii, and Takanohana.

Yokozuna Wakanohana is sitting out the tournament with an injury.

The bout between Musashimaru and maegashira No. 3 Takatoriki was preceded by two false starts, when the wrestlers failed to charge at each other at the same time. Once they got their timing down, however, Musashimaru easily pushed Takatoriki out.

Takanohana pushed down komusubi (junior champion second class) Chiyotenzan (0-6).

In a completely one-sided bout, ozeki (champion) Chiyotaikai (5-1) quickly charged sekiwake (junior champion) Tochiazuma and pushed him out with powerful hand thrusts. Tochizauma fell to 4-2.

Of course "grand champion" for yokozuna is still used with some frequency, and the "champion" ozeki come up occasionally (mostly in rather badly written articles), but the rest of those wannabe-descriptive English terms have thankfully been consigned to the dustbin of history. "Public injury system" strikes me as the same kind of thing, just even more convoluted. If it was mentioned in print (and I'm not sure how often it even came up), it probably almost always got a long-form description along the lines of "...the public injury system, which allows wrestlers to sit out a tournament without penalty of rank...", under the assumption that none of the readers would get it otherwise. And if you don't think the readers will get the meaning from the term alone, it just doesn't matter if it's an overly literal translation, it's always going to be accompanied by the proper explanation anyway.

Of course I suppose what you're mainly concerned about is the possibility that it's actually a Wikipedia-created translation in the first place and thus original research? I'm relatively certain I recall seeing at least the phrase "public injury" in Sumo Mailing List posts from the 1990s, not necessarily with "system" tacked on. The primary usage there was almost certainly just "kosho" though. Maybe some of the big reference books from the era like GSFI have a mention of it?

Edited July 17, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,487]

4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

 I'm reasonably sure whoever the Kyokai was employing to translate those pages at the time didn't have much guidance in what terms to use.

 

Their official English homepage has long been a joke, English-wise. "Have you ever seen the sumo??", screams the header. "Tickets of the tournament at Nagoya can be purchased now!" it goes on. 
"We keep trying to respect all sumo fans through tour of the country, give a dream and contribute to upbringing of youth as role of Nihon Sumo Kyokai Tour department.
For Further Information Please Contact:" says the sumo information page. It goes on and on. Now, this isn't some fanboy page-this is the official Sumo Kyokai site. So, yes, you are correct- everything written in English on the official Kyokai page should be taken with a Terutsuyoshi handful of salt.  And we will not go into the shikona spellings..

[Asashosakari 19,606]

23 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Their official English homepage has long been a joke, English-wise. "Have you ever seen the sumo??", screams the header. "Tickets of the tournament at Nagoya can be purchased now!" it goes on. 
"We keep trying to respect all sumo fans through tour of the country, give a dream and contribute to upbringing of youth as role of Nihon Sumo Kyokai Tour department.
For Further Information Please Contact:" says the sumo information page. It goes on and on. Now, this isn't some fanboy page-this is the official Sumo Kyokai site. So, yes, you are correct- everything written in English on the official Kyokai page should be taken with a Terutsuyoshi handful of salt.  And we will not go into the shikona spellings..

Well, it was better when the site was run by Goo. The awkward English only came back with full force when they took the website management in-house again about 8 years ago.

The English in the banzuke topics specifically was good for a couple of years already even before Goo took over in 2004. Pretty sure the Kyokai used the services of an actual professional translator for those for a while. But yeah, it's how bad the English is when the Kyokai does it themselves that makes me doubt that the good English from back then was officially vetted in any way.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Hidenotora 82]

4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I don't think the Kyokai ever had an official English term for it. The closest I'm able to find are a handful of banzuke topics pages from 2002/2003, in which the effect of the kosho system is referred to as "official absence due to a recognized injury" and slight variations thereof (sometimes leaving out "official" and sometimes "recognized"). But that's at best semi-official, as I'm reasonably sure whoever the Kyokai was employing to translate those pages at the time didn't have much guidance in what terms to use.

Keep in mind that "public injury system" as a term dates from a time when English-language coverage of sumo was assumed to be targeted almost completely at total laymen, which gave us gems like this (emphasis mine):

Of course "grand champion" for yokozuna is still used with some frequency, and the "champion" ozeki come up occasionally (mostly in rather badly written articles), but the rest of those wannabe-descriptive English terms have thankfully been consigned to the dustbin of history. "Public injury system" strikes me as the same kind of thing, just even more convoluted. If it was mentioned in print (and I'm not sure how often it even came up), it probably almost always got a long-form description along the lines of "...the public injury system, which allows wrestlers to sit out a tournament without penalty of rank...", under the assumption that none of the readers would get it otherwise. And if you don't think the readers will get the meaning from the term alone, it just doesn't matter if it's an overly literal translation, it's always going to be accompanied by the proper explanation anyway.

Of course I suppose what you're mainly concerned about is the possibility that it's actually a Wikipedia-created translation in the first place and thus original research? I'm relatively certain I recall seeing at least the phrase "public injury" in Sumo Mailing List posts from the 1990s, not necessarily with "system" tacked on. The primary usage there was almost certainly just "kosho" though. Maybe some of the big reference books from the era like GSFI have a mention of it?

I'm almost certain I've heard the "ozeki champion" phrase used on the NHK World Grand Sumo Highlights show somewhat recently before, but I could be mis-remembering.

It's a good point though that a lot of these terms were to make sumo more understandable for newer/casual/English speaking fans, and this may well be the origin of "public injury system". My issue is that "public injury system" as an English term doesn't really shed any light on things, because the term "public injury" itself means something else in English (Googling "public injury" for me returns results from ambulance-chasing injury lawyers: 'What is an accident in a public place? Many people want to know the public injury definition, to understand if they are entitled to make a claim...' etc. etc.). Maybe this is just a UK thing but the term is awkward; I can't ever imagine anyone replying to the question "how did you hurt your leg?" with "it was a public injury"; if they did I'd have to ask what they meant.

That said, public injury system has been used recently in one of John Gunning's articles for the Japan Times:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2019/11/07/sumo/sumo-injuries-pose-ever-present-issues-wrestlers-rankings/

Quote

Directly translated as public injury system, kōshō seido, is a freezing of a player’s position, allowing them to be absent from a tournament without incurring the resultant drop in rank.

So it has recent use by credible sources. But was John just going with the "orthodoxy" of translating this term this way? Or is this really the intended meaning based on the logic Naganoyama mentioned above?
I just find it hard to believe that in every other instance, 公傷 would be translated into English as "occupational injury" and not "public injury" (because public injury is an odd term in English, and means something different), except here where it somehow carries a different meaning despite being the literal same word composed of the same characters. I can see the logic in it being "public" as in, incurred in the basho ring and not in private training, and maybe there's some further Japanese nuance here (公用 translates to both "government use" and "public use" in some dictionaries; seeing something marked as "for goverment use" is completely different to something being marked "for public use" in English, a difference that could end up with you getting arrested for tresspassing on government property or something) but I still feel like public injury system is a bad term for kosho seido. Then again, even "occupational injury system" isn't quite the right meaning, and maybe the better approach is to avoid a direct translation at all and just explain it, which is the approach the sumoforum glossary takes.

 

2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Their official English homepage has long been a joke, English-wise. "Have you ever seen the sumo??", screams the header. "Tickets of the tournament at Nagoya can be purchased now!" it goes on. 
"We keep trying to respect all sumo fans through tour of the country, give a dream and contribute to upbringing of youth as role of Nihon Sumo Kyokai Tour department.
For Further Information Please Contact:" says the sumo information page. It goes on and on. Now, this isn't some fanboy page-this is the official Sumo Kyokai site. So, yes, you are correct- everything written in English on the official Kyokai page should be taken with a Terutsuyoshi handful of salt.  And we will not go into the shikona spellings..

The NSK English page is quite poor, people have an expectation of Japanese websites having this kind of comedy English on it. "Have you seen the sumo?" is one that sticks in my head too. Maybe asking for an official NSK translation wouldn't mean much anyway because you're right that they don't put much effort into that aspect of things. But that could at least be some kind of appeal to authority on the matter, because right now it seems like the term is a mistranslation that came out of the ether 20+ years ago on mailing lists, and has never really been changed because like Asashosakari said, the term is almost always followed with an explanation of what kosho seido was, or people just say "kosho" in English language discussions anyway.

 

Thanks all for your input so far though! I'm still curious to hear more, especially a follow-up on Naganoyama's argument that the public aspect refers to the fact an injury occurred in the honbasho dohyo. Is this the actual origin of the term or a kind of false etymology based on the calque-ing of 公傷？

[Yamanashi 3,895]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"Have you ever seen the sumo??", screams the header.

This has always grated on my nerves.  Who would tout on their public website something like "Have you ever seen the baseball?"

[Hidenotora 82]

I did a bit of digging, including the Japanese Wikipedia article on kosho seido, which contains this interesting fact:

Quote

しかし、昭和47年(1972年)3月場所9日目から「不眠症」を理由に休場した横綱北の富士は、ハワイでサーフィンを楽しむ姿を観光客に撮影され、写真が地元新聞に掲載された。相撲協会は北の富士に厳重注意をしている[2][3]。

(Rough translation:) However, yokozuna Kitanofuji, who went kyujo from the 9th day of the March 1972 tournament due to "insomnia," was photographed by a tourist enjoying surfing in Hawaii, and the photo was published in a local newspaper. The Sumo Association issued a stern warning to Kitanofuji

Aside from being a great image, how can insomnia be considered a "public injury" in the "sustained on the dohyo" sense of the term? As someone who sometimes can't sleep I'm not dismissing the claim of it being serious enough to miss a basho for, but maybe don't go surfing afterwards...

So, is this proof the "public=in-ring injury" definition is false? Or is there some subtelty to it? Maybe someone familiar with this even can shed some light on things?

Disregard, yokozuna didn't need kosho of course

Edited July 17, 2021 by Hidenotora
whoops

[Asojima 2,874]

15 minutes ago, Hidenotora said:

I did a bit of digging, including the Japanese Wikipedia article on kosho seido, which contains this interesting fact:

Aside from being a great image, how can insomnia be considered a "public injury" in the "sustained on the dohyo" sense of the term? As someone who sometimes can't sleep I'm not dismissing the claim of it being serious enough to miss a basho for, but maybe don't go surfing afterwards...

So, is this proof the "public=in-ring injury" definition is false? Or is there some subtelty to it? Maybe someone familiar with this even can shed some light on things?

Yokozunae had no need for kosho.  Just an example of a strange kyujo. 

[Hidenotora 82]

Just now, Asojima said:

Yokozunae had no need for kosho.  Just an example of a strange kyujo. 

Ah, you're right of course! Disregard this then, would still be interested in hearing more opinions though!

[Kintamayama 45,487]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

This has always grated on my nerves.  Who would tout on their public website something like "Have you ever seen the baseball?"

On John Fogerty's homepage it says "Have you ever seen the rain?" 

[ryafuji 815]

Dunno if Grand Sumo Fully Illustrated uses the "Public Injury System" term but I can confirm that the other Grand Sumo book, Living Sport and Tradition, does - so it dates from at least the late 80s.