Kyushu 2021 discussion

[Katooshu 3,135]

Yep, Hak only had 3 kinboshi eligible matches (all vs Asa) because he spent so little time as a maegashira. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Katooshu

[Thorbjarn 214]

What a great execution on that leg sweep by Tobizaru. Much like Tamawashi, I didn't see it coming at all. 

[Seiyashi 4,071]

5 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Yep, Hak only had 3 kinboshi eligible matches (all vs Asa) because he spent so little time as a maegashira. 

And he only had one yokozuna to farm them off, too. Ichinojo and Endo, by comparison, had 3-4 yokozuna to fight for kinboshi.

[Katooshu 3,135]

Could this be Mitakeumi's basho? 

[Thorbjarn 214]

Felt like a bit of a gift to Takakeisho, to me both looked to be out at the same time. 

Edit: I didn't see the hairpull, but was this part of the decision? (I don't know Japanese besides singular words) 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Thorbjarn

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Not a question of who was out: Ichinojo was ruled to have committed hansoku by hairpull. Ichinojo looking black as thunder, and even Takakeisho looks bewildered at how he won. But oooh, it's crystal on the replay, although that's a bit early in the bout than most of us were probably looking.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

Just now, Thorbjarn said:

Felt like a bit of a gift to Takakeisho, to me both looked to be out at the same time.  

Hairpull DQ.

[Thorbjarn 214]

Good catch, didn't even see it in real time. Pretty blatant in the replay. 

[Hankegami 412]

3 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

Felt like a bit of a gift to Takakeisho, to me both looked to be out at the same time. 

I agree. I am honestly rooting for a Takakeisho Yusho but this decision was unfair. Ichinojo just accidentally stomped out first (because he's massive) but Takakeisho was plainly flying out without any active movement. What I would interpret as a "dead man". A redo would have been the fairest decision in my opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see the hairpull myself.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Hankegami

[Seiyashi 4,071]

4 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

7 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

Felt like a bit of a gift to Takakeisho, to me both looked to be out at the same time. 

I agree. I am honestly rooting for a Takakeisho Yusho but this decision was unfair. Ichinojo just accidentally stomped out first (because he's massive) but Takakeisho was plainly flying out without any active movement. What I would interpret as a "dead man". A redo would have been the fairest decision in my opinion.

Ichinojo lost by hairpull, very early on in the bout. If not for the hairpull, Takakeisho was almost certainly dead body even if Ichinojo's foot touched down earlier. To be fair, I don't think any of us expect to have to look for a hairpull that early, and before a lengthy standoff to boot too.

That being said, the fact that there was a mono-ii was probably important; apparently according to Herouth, the hansoku should have been called way earlier, and the fact it wasn't called means that everyone probably missed it. If not for the mono-ii giving the video room time to spot the hansoku and relay that to Isegahama, Ichinojo would probably have won.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Akinomaki 39,813]

Just now, Thorbjarn said:

Good catch, didn't even see it in real time. Pretty blatant in the replay. 

Had nothing to do with the bout outcome though, just some inadvertent grab - the shimpan found something to save Takekeisho

[Faustonowaka 112]

Ichinojo was robbed. The “hairpull” had no influence on the outcome of the bout

[Hankegami 412]

Just now, Seiyashi said:

Ichinojo lost by hairpull, very early on in the bout. If not for the hairpull, Takakeisho was almost certainly dead body even if Ichinojo's foot touched down earlier.

Yup. I edited my post as early as I read your replies. By the way, it is not possible to the referees to call out the bout as early as they see the hair pull? I did my judgement because I coudn't see any foul during the final rush.

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Ichinojo lost by hairpull, very early on in the bout.

It just seems odd the two men fought for about three minutes when the bout was effectively over. Annoying for Ichi and unnecessarily painful for Takakeisho.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 minute ago, Faustonowaka said:

Ichinojo was robbed. The “hairpull” had no influence on the outcome of the bout

As gets mentioned every time it comes up, it’s irrelevant. If something is against the rules, it’s against the rules at any point in the bout, not just the moment of victory. Think of like in other sports like football: if a player commits a red card offense, it’s a red card offense and he gets sent off regardless of what impact the offense had on the opposition’s chance to score a goal.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Neither could most of us watching, to be fair. And I think they are supposed to. I also edited my post afterwards, but the working theory is that the mono-ii for the foot gave the video room time to spot the hansoku while rewinding the tape - and so it was called.

That said I have no idea how everyone managed to miss a pull that was so blatant in both NHK's and Abema's replays. Either the gyoji or the shimpan or both have something to answer for, if they were supposed to have stopped the bout early.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Taliesin 68]

I noticed it when i was watching. Though I wasn't sure they are going to call it. I don't think shinpan haven't noticed it. I think they also decided to wait for the end of the bout and check it.

[Djihi 33]

9 minutes ago, Faustonowaka said:

Ichinojo was robbed. The “hairpull” had no influence on the outcome of the bout

Ichinojo pulled the hair in the moment Taka was trying to separate from him. Because of the hairpull Ichinojo was able to grab the mawashi in the first place. 

Also is inrelevant, if you brake the rules - you brake the rules. 

[Thorbjarn 214]

The idea that they reviewed the bout thanks to the close call at the end and caught the hairpull in the process makes most sense. The replays at first focused on the final seconds of the bout, only after the verdict was declared they started showing the hairpull. 

I agree that a DQ is a DQ, plus who is to say that it didn't impact the fight just because it did not happen at the end? A missed PK call can be deciding in a football/soccer match, even if it was way before the game was over. If there is a instant replay // video assisted referee rule, they should use it to its best abilities. 

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Could we just fast-forward to the end of the hairpull discussion please?

[Eikokurai 3,433]

3 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Could we just fast-forward to the end of the hairpull discussion please?

Does it make you tear your hair out?

[Faustonowaka 112]

Just wondering: if the gyoji had noticed the hairpull in the beginning of the bout, I suppose he could have immediately stopped the match and declare Takakeisho the winner? Has such a thing ever happened before? I was under the impression they only call hansoku when a bout is allready over and when the hansoku directly lead to your opponent falling down or out

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

Yep, Hak only had 3 kinboshi eligible matches (all vs Asa) because he spent so little time as a maegashira. 

Of course. That was my point (poorly worded). His single unspectacular record--due only to the fact that he was spectacular. 

[Hankegami 412]

15 minutes ago, Faustonowaka said:

Just wondering: if the gyoji had noticed the hairpull in the beginning of the bout, I suppose he could have immediately stopped the match and declare Takakeisho the winner? Has such a thing ever happened before? I was under the impression they only call hansoku when a bout is allready over and when the hansoku directly lead to your opponent falling down or out

In fact, I believe he didn't notice it at all (despite being literally in front of them during the hair pull), and the referees trusted him. That's the only reason I can find for them to wait the end of the match to call the pull. My guess is that the replay room called Isegahama at a second moment, maybe during the long stalling, and he decided to wait for the end of the match and then called a mono-ii.

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

1 hour ago, Taliesin said:

I noticed it when i was watching

That's two of us, at least. I thought it was pretty blatant. Mildly ashamed to admit that I was thinking "Phew, Ichi got away with it..."