Kyushu 2021 discussion

[Amamaniac 2,079]

Interesting bout between Endo and Ura.  

Endo approached the leg picker similarly to Takayasu, the day before: keep Ura away yet stay in contact with him.  

There were a few important differences, however.  Endo kept Ura at arm's length square in front of him, rather than leaning his shoulder forward and leaving his leg forward and vulnerable à la Takayasu.  He also kept his eyes on Ura at all times, whereas Takayasu seemed to be out of position to do that.  Endo expected Ura to attack from down below almost daring him to try, and so when Ura did just as expected, Endo was able to block him and force him to the clay.  

Good strategy from Endo.  Takayasu needs to do more homework...

[Thorbjarn 215]

Takakeisho and Terunofuji look amazing so far. 

Tamawashi is a weird one, he is the one I ALWAYS forget, all of the sudden he is up for his match and I realize he is only one win behind. 

[Yamanashi 3,903]

53 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Endo kept Ura at arm's length square in front of him, rather than leaning his shoulder forward and leaving his leg forward and vulnerable à la Takayasu

That is a Takayasu trademark: when the opponent is facing him "sideways" along that long axis, it's almost impossible to knock him over moving forward (though he's susceptible to sideways shenanigans).  He must have learned that from the master.

[Amamaniac 2,079]

37 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

He must have learned that from the master.

Whatever he learned, it doesn't seem to be working that well anymore. 

[Taliesin 68]

When contemplating a (not obvious) yokozuna promotion, is the low number of active Ozekis ever a factor? Or do they have nothing against Y-O?

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 153]

On 16/11/2021 at 08:57, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Oh and fun fact, Tsurugisho v Kaisho will be the first time they met in over 7 years. Last time was for the Jonidan yusho.

 

More 7 year gaps. Today we have Abi v Hidenoumi, both then fighting under their real names, and Akua v Tochinoshin, which occurred during Tochi's comeback.

and on day 4 we had Tsurugisho v Bushozan, both just starting their careers

Edited November 21, 2021 by Yokozuna Hattorizakura

[Reonito 1,519]

8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

The only possible way in which back-to-back yusho won’t get an Ozeki promoted is if they’re both mediocre yusho, say 11-4 > 11-4, and there have hardly ever been 11-4 yusho so that just isn’t going to happen. 

The weakest back-to-back yushos are both 12-3, and that's only happened twice.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Whatever he learned, it doesn't seem to be working that well anymore. 

Well, Kisenosato hasn't been around for keiko for awhile, and there isn't much talent at the heya.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

3 hours ago, Taliesin said:

When contemplating a (not obvious) yokozuna promotion, is the low number of active Ozekis ever a factor? Or do they have nothing against Y-O?

I would hazard a guess at no for a few reasons. First, YO is a thing, as you pointed out, and there has been at least one instance of two YO when there were no ozeki in Chiyonofuji's time, I believe. Second, it doesn't make sense to "double-gate" yokozuna promotions by the failure of others to make a lower promotion standard. Third, they'd loosen the criteria for ozeki in such a case, and it's easier to get new ozeki than yokozuna.

The only thing I can possibly think of where you might not want to promote someone to yokozuna is the fact that yokozuna do not have the option of reclimbing the ranks. Terunofuji would have retired by now if he had been promoted before his injuries, and given Takakeisho's streakiness and injury history, there is a good chance that being promoted will cut short his career once he encounters an injury which can be recovered from but takes longer than the ~1 year of kyujo grace that yokozuna get.

But on the flip side, becoming a yokozuna is so rare (and the performance bar set so very low by Futahaguro) that I think most rikishi would gladly trade promotion for a few years off the tail end of their careers, and you do have even more latitude than ozeki to take basho off, as it were. There is pressure to perform but it's going to be pretty hard to go down in history as a worse yokozuna than Futahaguro. Considering Takakeisho's ambition, if he can create the chance, I think he'd seize it with both hands.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Katooshu 3,330]

Ya, I remember people arguing that it would've been better for Kise to have never been promoted, and thus to be remembered as a very good ozeki rather than as a poor, injury-riddled yokozuna. I think those people are totally wrong and that virtually every rikishi would pick being yokozuna, even with mediocre performance, over  peaking as a good ozeki. No matter how someone does as yokozuna, reaching that rank in the first place is special in a way that no other promotion is.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Katooshu

[Taliesin 68]

I see. Well, one can argue that few ozeki hints at a relatively weaker competition overall (at least when there are also few yokozuna), thus making every performance somewhat less significant. But I got my answer, thank you.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Taliesin

[Seiyashi 4,108]

The only response to that is basically you can only beat who can be put in front of you, which is why the yusho (and hence promotion) is a relative and personal standard (have more wins than everyone else + be consistent enough to do it twice) than an absolute one of performance to some other metric.

Puts me in mind of that joke about escaping from bears; you don't need to outrun Usain Bolt, just be faster than the poor schmuck escaping alongside you!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Taliesin 68]

Very reasonable. Well, I think if it's really 2 yusho as an ozeki (and at least some history of earlier successes) it is well-deserved. As for Takakeisho in particular... let him get there first.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

48 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Ya, I remember people arguing that it would've been better for Kise to have never been promoted, and thus to be remembered as a very good ozeki rather than as a poor, injury-riddled yokozuna. I think those people are totally wrong and that virtually every rikishi would pick being yokozuna, even with mediocre performance, over  peaking as a good ozeki. No matter how someone does as yokozuna, reaching that rank in the first place is special in a way that no other promotion is.

We had a discussion about that a few months (?) ago.  I'd summarize it as "would you rather be Kaio or Kisenosato?"  Probably more people would choose Kisenosato.

[Katooshu 3,330]

Definitely yokozuna Kise for me. Kaio won lots of yusho, but winning yusho is something Kise did too. Making it to sumo's pinnacle and becoming yokozuna, only Kise did that, and I think it's far more special than being an ozeki with a couple extra yusho to his name. 

Imagine an aspiring rikishi or ozumo newcomer saying to the media that instead of becoming yokozuna, his goal is reach to ozeki and stay there indefinitely, winning several yusho but otherwise piling up the 8-7s to maintain his rank. Now that would be something!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Katooshu

[Seiyashi 4,108]

50 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

We had a discussion about that a few months (?) ago.  I'd summarize it as "would you rather be Kaio or Kisenosato?"  Probably more people would choose Kisenosato.

To be fair, though, everyone recognises that Kisenosato had the devil's own luck with injury (compounded with his/his shisho's stubbornness) and he might well have been good for at least a couple more, if not beating Kaio's yusho haul, had he not been injured. Plus, winning your shin-yokozuna basho is a pretty spectacular achievement as well. So it's not much of a contest here.

The better question would probably be, "Would you rather be Kaio or Wakanohana"? Same era, same number of makuuchi championships, one made it to yokozuna but the other didn't, but their legacies and overall assessment are very different. In fact, Wakanohana is pretty much the poster boy for "would have been remembered as a great ozeki if not for promotion", although that is probably shaded a little by his father and brother. I think I would still prefer to be Wakanohana, but it's a lot more borderline and not as clear cut as Kaio v Kisenosato.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[WAKATAKE 2,671]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

Ya, I remember people arguing that it would've been better for Kise to have never been promoted, and thus to be remembered as a very good ozeki rather than as a poor, injury-riddled yokozuna. I think those people are totally wrong and that virtually every rikishi would pick being yokozuna, even with mediocre performance, over  peaking as a good ozeki. No matter how someone does as yokozuna, reaching that rank in the first place is special in a way that no other promotion is.

I may have been one of those people. And this argument stems back to when Wakanohana III was promoted. He had met the criteria by the JSA and YDC, and he had 5 yusho to his name at that point. Plus the fact that two brothers, let alone the ones who had brought the sumo's biggest popularity booms to the sport was more than deserving to get that title. However no one could see that he would become the 2nd yokozuna in the six basho era not to win a yusho at the rank. His Wikipedia page states the exact same thing, that he would have been a fine ozeki. But you would have to ask people, which would you rather take, the five yusho and good ozeki career, or having made it to the pinnacle of the sport and being named among only 73 individuals as of the end of this year?

Each person's careers bring about unique perspectives. Mitakeumi has two yusho but hasn't made ozeki. Takayasu made ozeki but does not have a yusho to his name. Many people have come and gone with long careers in the sanyaku, but no yusho whatsoever. Tokushoryu did the impossible and won the makujiri yusho and yet has never made sanyaku. And in Kise's case, a short yokozuna career, but having that one yusho to his name as a yokozuna, something he has over Wakanohana. Kise has that and will forever have that, and the manner in which he did it will always be remembered by fans who saw it.

[jsolo 106]

November Kyushu Basho Links and Statistics Blog--Day 7

results, standings, match articles, videos, photos, Kimarite Statistics, Time of Match statistics, Top Rank performance, Maegashira v san'yaku and More. JSA Youtube featured Day 7's Enho v Mitoryu match. Quite a match it was.

November Kyushu Basho Links and Statistics Blog Day 7

[Kaninoyama 1,818]

Guess who's today's guest commentator on the NHK Makuuchi broadcast?

Hint: Not the guy pictured below!

 

[Tigerboy1966 1,474]

Ryuden won again, and will face Tomokaze next. Double hurrah!

[yohcun 401]

Terutsuyoshi's botched ashitori attempt looked like Hattorizakura taking a dive against that big scary opponent.

[Tigerboy1966 1,474]

1 minute ago, yohcun said:

Terutsuyoshi's botched ashitori attempt looked like Hattorizakura taking a dive against that big scary opponent.

For Hattorizakura, all opponents were big and scary.

Cheap win for Kotoeko, but hei'll take it.

[Kaninoyama 1,818]

At the start of the broadcast when they flashed Hakuho's info: when he entered sumo, his record, when he became Yokozuna, etc. 

I found it amusing that among his stellar records was his total number of kinboshi: 

1. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Kaninoyama

[Thorbjarn 215]

Re: Kisenosato 

I always thought that, despite the disappointment that brought his Yokozuna run, his career is a great hero's tale. It's a story of amazing victory and an extreme downfall, ultimately ending in the hero's demise. The tragedy in it will probably help his legacy ultimately, as might his inspiring presence after his active career. It's also debatable whether the injury management would have been different or if Kisenosato would have gone intai after dropping out of Makuuchi or even earlier. Plus it seems like retirement has lifted the weight of the world off his shoulders. 

Good to see Kotoeko get a win. I'm also happy about any Ura win, but him using a henka feels like a rare thing, I sure hope there's no injury playing into his weapon of choice today. 

[Seiyashi 4,108]

6 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

At the start of the broadcast when they flashed Hakuho's info: when he entered sumo, his record, when he became Yokozuna, etc. 

I found it amusing that among his stellar records was his total number of kinboshi: 

1. 

If you're really on the up and up, ain't nobody got time to stick around in the joi to farm kinboshi.

Among active rikishi with a considerable sanyaku pedigree, Mitakeumi has a similarly lousy number of kinboshi (2) for the same reason. The active kinboshi record holders are, I believe, Ichinojo and Endo with about 7-8 apiece, and they're streaky as hell.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Seiyashi