Hypothetical changes to Ozumo that make some sense but will likely never happen

[Reonito 1,519]

From Wikipedia on Kitanofuji: "He reached ōzeki rank in July 1966. Although he had won only 28 bouts in the previous three tournaments (at least 33 are normally needed), Yutakayama was the only ōzeki at the time, and he was promoted largely because of his potential."

[Asashosakari 19,648]

2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

The idea of getting someone below Juryo a little extra each basho seems like a very good idea, though maybe it's not Darwinian enough for some.  However, I blanch a little at the thought of yet another division.  If you got your wish, but had to keep the same number of divisions (say, Makuuchi, Juryo, Makushita prime, Sandanme plus, Jonidan, Jonokuchi), where would your break points be for the lower divisions?

Break points as in division sizes? I'd probably just add the eliminated makushita ranks on to jonidan and jonokuchi. Those two divisions could honestly use a different split of their combined talent pool anyway, the 20-25 ranks that we usually see in jonokuchi aren't nearly enough to include everyone that is nowhere near competitive against actual jonidan regulars.  (A side effect of the tiny jonokuchi is that it's nearly impossible to get demoted out of jonidan with 3-4's and often even with 2-5's, which I find, well, wrong.) Could easily have 40-odd ranks in jonokuchi on competitive grounds, but of course not right now since that would leave jonidan at only 80-something.

I actually kept waiting for them to do something like cut sandanme some years ago when it looked like jonidan would keep struggling to fill 100 ranks, but they somehow got through that period and have come back to keep it at barely over 100 consistently again, despite recruitment not really picking up.

[Gurowake 4,100]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

When they've made such highly lenient promotions in the past, e.g. Kitanofuji after 8-7 10-5 10-5, they didn't treat them any differently than other Ozeki.

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

From Wikipedia on Kitanofuji: "He reached ōzeki rank in July 1966. Although he had won only 28 bouts in the previous three tournaments (at least 33 are normally needed), Yutakayama was the only ōzeki at the time, and he was promoted largely because of his potential."

This was still an "extra" promotion.  There was only one non-Yokozuna Ozeki, but there were 4 Yokozuna.  This was a fairly weak promotion, but it's not the only one back in that era.  This was before the current Kadoban era as well, which started in 1969, so you can't really compare how they may have treated demotions back then to now.

[Reonito 1,519]

40 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

This was still an "extra" promotion.  There was only one non-Yokozuna Ozeki, but there were 4 Yokozuna.  This was a fairly weak promotion, but it's not the only one back in that era.  This was before the current Kadoban era as well, which started in 1969, so you can't really compare how they may have treated demotions back then to now.

I guess Kaiketsu is a better (more modern) example; they seem to care about having at least two Ozeki if at all possible even when there are Yokozuna on the banzuke: "In September 1974 Kaiketsu turned in a make-koshi or losing score of 7–8 at sekiwake rank but then took his first top division yūshō or championship in November as a komusubi. He scored twelve wins against three losses, and defeated yokozuna Kitanoumi in a playoff. He followed this up with an 11–4 score in January 1975. His combined total of wins over the last three tournaments was 30, below the normal standard for ōzeki promotion of 33, but there was only one ōzeki at the time, Takanohana, so the Sumo Association decided to promote Kaiketsu."

[Gurowake 4,100]

15 minutes ago, Reonito said:

His combined total of wins over the last three tournaments was 30, below the normal standard for ōzeki promotion of 33, but there was only one ōzeki at the time, Takanohana, so the Sumo Association decided to promote Kaiketsu."

I don't see the NSK actually coming out and saying what is claimed in your quotation.   I can see the real reason being that he had a long history of good records in the joi up to that point.

K 11, S 10, S 7, S 7, M1 11, S 4, M4 9, K 8, S 7, K 8, K 11, S 10, S 8, S 8, S 7, K12 Y, S 11 -> O

Wikipedia cites a print source, and even if that print source were to say what Wikipedia says it does, I don't believe it.  It's more likely to be that author's interpretation of events.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Gurowake

[Godango 1,014]

5 hours ago, Gurowake said:

If you're going to do that, why keep the "There must be Two Sekiwake and two Komusubi" requirement?  There absolutely will be 2 Ozeki every banzuke for the same reason there are two of each of the junior sanyaku.  One assumes they'll promote someone with an unusually weak record if they need to in order to fill the spot, just like what can happen with the lower sanyaku.  Every Ozeki promotion in the last 100 years or whatever since they started promoting extra ones were for extra spots, while extra spots are somewhat rare for lower sanyaku. 

With the lower sanyaku, there is at least no difference in how promotion/demotion is earned than the lower ranks, so it removes the difficulty of removing someone from the rank when they are not performing up the the (theoretical*) standard of the rank. There is no risk of an underwhelming sekiwake hanging around forever. And even if they do with constant 8-7's, good for them. They are still at risk of demotion every time, and aren't earning any additional perks beyond what their rank and performance merits.

This would also allow stricter enforcement of promotion criteria. 32 wins? Doesn't cut it. We don't NEED an ozeki. Go al a Takakeisho and make the rikishi fight another tournament prior to promotion if you're unsure about them.

This would mean it's a definitive 'cream of the crop' who rise there, and I would still say there should be a set number of KK allowed during any ozeki tenure as per my previous post.

*On the 'theoretical' standard, I guess that's really the problem for many of us. The reality is, someone like Shodai is a perfectly fine ozeki by the current standard that has been set. The difference between he and Mitakeumi is that he could put a run together when the pressure was on, maybe that consistency and performance in response to pressure is simply what sets the Ozeki apart from the Sekiwake, and the ability to consistently win tournaments the Yokozuna apart from the Ozeki? In that case, the current system is working well.

 

[Reonito 1,519]

1 hour ago, Godango said:

This would mean it's a definitive 'cream of the crop' who rise there

This discussion has happened on the forum before—there's a name for that cream of the crop, and it's "Yokozuna." Any Ozeki who would meet the enhanced promotion and retention criteria is likely to meet Yokozuna promotion criteria fairly quickly (Kisenosato was notable for being an exception, and even he made it eventually). Of course, one could decide that Ozeki is merely a temporary rank on the way to Yokozuna, but if we're to have career Ozeki, we have to accept that they'll mostly look like Goeido/Shodai.

1 hour ago, Godango said:

*On the 'theoretical' standard, I guess that's really the problem for many of us. The reality is, someone like Shodai is a perfectly fine ozeki by the current standard that has been set.

 

[Yamanashi 3,903]

5 hours ago, Gurowake said:

This was still an "extra" promotion.  There was only one non-Yokozuna Ozeki, but there were 4 Yokozuna.  This was a fairly weak promotion, but it's not the only one back in that era.  This was before the current Kadoban era as well, which started in 1969, so you can't really compare how they may have treated demotions back then to now.

So, is the "Yokozuna/Ozeki" tag put on Kakuryu awhile back just a basho-by-basho thing for appearance's sake?

[Gurowake 4,100]

1 minute ago, Yamanashi said:

So, is the "Yokozuna/Ozeki" tag put on Kakuryu awhile back just a basho-by-basho thing for appearance's sake?

Yes.  The banzuke "must" contain someone ranked at Ozeki on each side.  Yokozuna are still Ozeki in some sense, but they have a higher title that's normally used on the banzuke.  They are listed as Yokozuna and Ozeki when there aren't enough Ozeki that aren't Yokozuna.

[Reonito 1,519]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

Yes.  The banzuke "must" contain someone ranked at Ozeki on each side.  Yokozuna are still Ozeki in some sense, but they have a higher title that's normally used on the banzuke.  They are listed as Yokozuna and Ozeki when there aren't enough Ozeki that aren't Yokozuna.

In the six-basho era, the banzuke has contained as few a 3 Yokozuna and Ozeki on only a handful of occasions, and never for very long. The number dropped to 2 only once, in 1993, right before Takanohana's Ozeki promotion.

[Yamanashi 3,903]

47 minutes ago, Reonito said:

In the six-basho era, the banzuke has contained as few a 3 Yokozuna and Ozeki on only a handful of occasions, and never for very long. The number dropped to 2 only once, in 1993, right before Takanohana's Ozeki promotion.

And in case anyone's wondering if they "snuck him in" to an Ozeki slot, Takanohana's previous three basho went: 14-1 (second Yusho), 10-5, 11-4.

[Godango 1,014]

10 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

And in case anyone's wondering if they "snuck him in" to an Ozeki slot, Takanohana's previous three basho went: 14-1 (second Yusho), 10-5, 11-4.

This will be off-topic slightly but I saw this this morning -- Takanohana then went 11-4 J, 14-1 Y, 13-2 D, 12-3 J all at Ozeki -- can anyone explain why he wasn't promoted to Yok in this time? Especially after the 14-1 Y,  13-2D? Was this simply a period of extreme sticking to the 2 yusho rule?

EDIT: Especially considering the Yusho in question was his third, followed by a doten. Boggles the mind, when thinking by today's standards.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Godango

[Reonito 1,519]

27 minutes ago, Godango said:

This will be off-topic slightly but I saw this this morning -- Takanohana then went 11-4 J, 14-1 Y, 13-2 D, 12-3 J all at Ozeki -- can anyone explain why he wasn't promoted to Yok in this time? Especially after the 14-1 Y,  13-2D? Was this simply a period of extreme sticking to the 2 yusho rule?

EDIT: Especially considering the Yusho in question was his third, followed by a doten. Boggles the mind, when thinking by today's standards.

Yeah they were strict about the two yusho in a row after the Futahaguro debacle.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

10 minutes ago, Reonito said:

39 minutes ago, Godango said:

This will be off-topic slightly but I saw this this morning -- Takanohana then went 11-4 J, 14-1 Y, 13-2 D, 12-3 J all at Ozeki -- can anyone explain why he wasn't promoted to Yok in this time? Especially after the 14-1 Y,  13-2D? Was this simply a period of extreme sticking to the 2 yusho rule?

EDIT: Especially considering the Yusho in question was his third, followed by a doten. Boggles the mind, when thinking by today's standards.

Yeah they were strict about the two yusho in a row after the Futahaguro debacle.

In particular, they had made Akebono meet the two yusho in a row criteria, so Takanohana had to do the same as well. 

[Katooshu 3,327]

Takanohana winning 7 yusho before reaching yokozuna is one of the most 'holy crap!!' sumo facts for me.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Katooshu

[ryafuji 815]

9 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Takanohana winning 7 yusho before reaching yokozuna is one of the most 'holy crap!!' sumo facts for me.

He was called the "Tokyo Yokozuna" as until that second consecutive 15-0 yusho in Kyushu 1994 that finally got him promoted he had been unable to win outside of the Kokugikan (which obviously meant he was unable to win two in a row.) 

Edited December 8, 2021 by ryafuji

[Asashosakari 19,648]

If only they didn't scrap that "we're going to run two different banzuke for Tokyo and for regional basho" thing they briefly did after the Tokyo/Osaka merger..."Tokyo yokozuna" could have been an actual thing. 

[Seiyashi 4,108]

Surprisingly, Takanohana wouldn't be promoted that much earlier if the two separate banzuke scheme were in effect; he'd still have to wait for his 5th yusho, which was only three basho before his promotion. 

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

If only they didn't scrap that "we're going to run two different banzuke for Tokyo and for regional basho" thing they briefly did after the Tokyo/Osaka merger..."Tokyo yokozuna" could have been an actual thing. 

Would certainly spice up GTB... 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Something I’d like to see done and which could be implemented immediately is the use of henka somehow recorded for easy referencing. As it’s not a kimarite it doesn’t get noted anywhere, but when it was integral to the win, I’d like that mentioned rather than just ‘hatakikomi’. Henka-hatakikomi.

More difficult, but which would also be cool, is a record of attempted kimarite in a bout. How often does a really exciting tussle get decided by plain old yorikiri after the guys have traded oshi attacks and attempted to throw or trip each other, none of which gets remembered in writing?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Reonito 1,519]

6 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Something I’d like to see done and which could be implemented immediately is the use of henka somehow recorded for easy referencing.

Too much of a judgement call?

[Eikokurai 3,437]

5 hours ago, Reonito said:

Too much of a judgement call?

No more so than the actual kimarite, which is decided by a guy in a booth using his own judgement. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

They could call it hajime-te

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

An Ozeki who wins three tournaments as an Ozeki becomes Yokozuna after his third Yusho (with retroactive effect of course for Konishiki, Kaio and Tochiazuma !) 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

On 12/12/2021 at 02:25, Kaiomitsuki said:

An Ozeki who wins three tournaments as an Ozeki becomes Yokozuna after his third Yusho (with retroactive effect of course for Konishiki, Kaio and Tochiazuma !) 

I know where you’re coming from but I like that there are no hard and fast promotion rules like this. The Kyokai has tremendous discretion to promote people already and I’m sure any Ozeki getting three yusho in a short time would get the nod. Making it a definite rule could, theoretically, lead to a situation where a mediocre but long-serving Ozeki who’s survived for years with 8-7s has one standout basho, scores a third yusho and gets the rope. I think a lot of people would find that hard to swallow. Tochiazuma is a good example of that. He had approx two-year gaps between each of his three yusho, and while his records in between were solid enough (plenty of 9-6s and 10-5s), he only had one JY and that was actually as Ozekiwake. He lost and recovered his rank twice. Not consistently Yokozuna-level sumo to justify a promotion by default.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Eikokurai