Hiro Morita’s “Sumo Prime Time”

[Seiyashi 4,108]

11 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

The usage "tourney" is earlier, I believe.  From the Latin tornare "to turn", representing the jousters turn at the end of a pass.  Tournament adds the French -ment to represent the act of tourneying (if you get my point).

I know; that too was RabidJohn's point, but I'm trying to say that just because the contraction of "tournament" to "tourney" coincidentally happens to overlap with the older form of "tournament", it does not necessarily mean that "tourney" was deliberately used in its archaic sense as opposed to being used as a Hip Jive contraction of "tournament". Alone it would be equivocal, but the context of Hiro's English being more of a modern, informal variety suggests the contraction rather than the archaism. Of course, it's not definitive, and I could be wrong, but there's more than one way to do the dohyō-iri.

That there is an overlap is perhaps not coincidence considering it's adding and taking off a suffix, but that's besides the point. 

(A massive linguistic sidetrack: I was going to say more than one way to skin a cat, then decided to add some sumo flavour and change it to more than one way to tie a mawashi, but the yokozuna dohyō-iri was literally the only thing I could think of in a hurry in sumo where there was actually known to be at least somewhat of a choice on how to do it.)

Edited September 30, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Yamanashi 3,903]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

I know; that too was RabidJohn's point, but I'm trying to say that just because the contraction of "tournament" to "tourney" coincidentally happens to overlap with the older form of "tournament", it does not necessarily mean that "tourney" was deliberately used in its archaic sense as opposed to being used as a Hip Jive contraction of "tournament". Alone it would be equivocal, but within the context of Hiro's English being more of a modern, informal variety suggests the contraction rather than the archaism.

That there is an overlap is perhaps not coincidence considering it's adding and taking off a suffix, but that's besides the point. 

Oh, I agree.  The chance that Hiro is trying to bring back a more archaic perspective to English is ... unlikely.  I just wanted to point out that tournament was actually an embellishment on tourney.  I imagine Henry II, hearing that the French court invited him to a "tournement", would grumble "why can't they just call it a tourney!"

[Jomangor 29]

17 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I know; that too was RabidJohn's point, but I'm trying to say that just because the contraction of "tournament" to "tourney" coincidentally happens to overlap with the older form of "tournament", it does not necessarily mean that "tourney" was deliberately used in its archaic sense as opposed to being used as a Hip Jive contraction of "tournament". Alone it would be equivocal, but the context of Hiro's English being more of a modern, informal variety suggests the contraction rather than the archaism. Of course, it's not definitive, and I could be wrong, but there's more than one way to do the dohyō-iri.

That there is an overlap is perhaps not coincidence considering it's adding and taking off a suffix, but that's besides the point. 

(A massive linguistic sidetrack: I was going to say more than one way to skin a cat, then decided to add some sumo flavour and change it to more than one way to tie a mawashi, but the yokozuna dohyō-iri was literally the only thing I could think of in a hurry in sumo where there was actually known to be at least somewhat of a choice on how to do it.)

There's more than one way to iri your dohyō.

[RabidJohn 1,853]

18 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Alone it would be equivocal, but the context of Hiro's English being more of a modern, informal variety suggests the contraction rather than the archaism.

I'd never actually considered that. Knowing 'tourney' as a full word rather than a contraction means that's all I hear when he says it.

I don't recall Hiro ever coming out with 'winningest', but I may have blocked the memory...

Let's face it, Hiro has excellent command of the English language, so all this is just quibbling.

On the other hand, he's come out with "Tobizaru, who calls himself the Flying Monkey" a couple of times now. Is that correct? I'm not saying Iwasaki Masaya had no say in it, but wouldn't it have been Oitekaze-oyakata who bestowed the shikona?

[Hankegami 537]

20 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I know; that too was RabidJohn's point, but I'm trying to say that just because the contraction of "tournament" to "tourney" coincidentally happens to overlap with the older form of "tournament", it does not necessarily mean that "tourney" was deliberately used in its archaic sense as opposed to being used as a Hip Jive contraction of "tournament". Alone it would be equivocal, but the context of Hiro's English being more of a modern, informal variety suggests the contraction rather than the archaism. Of course, it's not definitive, and I could be wrong, but there's more than one way to do the dohyō-iri.

19 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Oh, I agree.  The chance that Hiro is trying to bring back a more archaic perspective to English is ... unlikely.

I admit I didn't think about archaisms when I first read the "tourney" caption on SPT, although I felt it was odd. Aside from Hiro himself, however, SPT is an official NSK channel so it could be actually Hakkaku's call (via Hiro). Just saying, my Japanese dictionary does not have an entry for "basho" nor "honbasho" at all, translating "tournament" directly with English loanword tonamento. Therefore, using an archaic English noun is somewhat fitting.

Although I am at a loss myself with using "tourney", a noun more usually associated with jousting (not exactly a wrestling competition). Even its Latin root (mentioned by Yamanaka) was originally used for chariot races going all round a circular arena much like modern F1 or NASCAR. Unfortunately, European wrestling knew a similar slump to Sumo in the Middle Ages, so when boxing and associated sports came back from being street brawls to Olympic competitions in the late 19th century there was no specific term for them.

Thinking again, "competition" itself would be a more fitting term for them all. That's what they do, after all.

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

On the other hand, he's come out with "Tobizaru, who calls himself the Flying Monkey" a couple of times now. Is that correct? I'm not saying Iwasaki Masaya had no say in it, but wouldn't it have been Oitekaze-oyakata who bestowed the shikona?

I believe that in his case it was most likely his own call, at least once put formalities aside. Before Tobizaru, I could only find one Sd15 Saruwatari as using the "monkey" kanji. Which wrestler would ever be called a monkey, after all? I cannot fathom an oyakata pulling an Oda Nobunaga and baptizing a promising wrestler with an insulting shikona. I think we can be positive it was Tobizaru who proposed that.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Hankegami

[Seiyashi 4,108]

35 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

I cannot fathom an oyakata pulling an Oda Nobunaga and baptizing a promising wrestler with an insulting shikona. 

You might want to look up Moriurara... although that wasn't an outright insult rather than a massive *hint hint wink wink* jab. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Yamanashi 3,903]

4 hours ago, Hankegami said:

I admit I didn't think about archaisms when I first read the "tourney" caption on SPT, although I felt it was odd

Let's be clear: the word "tourney" is used extensively in American (and probably British) English, mostly (I think) due to news media editors wanting to use a contraction for the long word "tournament" in their headlines.  Probably not a single one of those editors ( nor Hiro) knows that "tourney" was the original word.

[RabidJohn 1,853]

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

You might want to look up Moriurara... although that wasn't an outright insult rather than a massive *hint hint wink wink* jab. 

I did (and found how it relates to Haruurara the dead-loss racehorse), but most of the links on the 1st page were about Hattorizakura!

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

On 01/10/2022 at 12:16, Hankegami said:

Before Tobizaru, I could only find one Sd15 Saruwatari as using the "monkey" kanji.

You missed Umizaru.

[RabidJohn 1,853]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

You missed Umizaru.

I remember the adverts for those in The Beano.

[Hankegami 537]

On 01/10/2022 at 12:51, Seiyashi said:

You might want to look up Moriurara... although that wasn't an outright insult rather than a massive *hint hint wink wink* jab. 

True, but I didn't say a "promising" wrestler for no reason. Tobizaru was named that way upon reaching Juryo. Moriurara, upon reaching his 38th MK in 38 career tournaments. My point was that saru is an unlikely kanji to be bestowed upon a sekitori.

8 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

You missed Umizaru.

I actually noticed him but didn't count him as he debuted after Tobizaru. At a second look, however, they adopted their current shikona much at a same time, that is for the Haru 2018 tournament. Tobizaru because he was promoted to Juryo, Umizaru... Not sure. He was promoted back to Jonidan back then, but it wasn't his first time. I guess he wanted to make it clear he didn't want to go back to Jonokuchi again. It worked, apparently, since he moved as up as to Sandanme before stalling back in Jonidan.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Hankegami

[code_number3 708]

Was Sokokurai speaking Mongol?

[Seiyashi 4,108]

Sounds like it. It's not Chinese, for sure. 

Also, I love the fact that Hiro can do a piece to camera from the very room in which Sōkokurai is getting his hair straightened out. That's excellent access on par with the regular media outlets, no doubt a perk from being the NSK's own channel, but it does show that they are taking this seriously enough.

[sumojoann 1,268]

Definitely speaking Mongolian, although even to my not-quite-so-educated ears, I detected quite a difference between Sokokurai's Inner Mongolian version of the language vs what's spoken in (Outer) Mongolia.  I even wonder if he could be understood by the other Mongolian rikishi (and Oyakata), all or most of whom I believe are from (Outer) Mongolia.

I was surprised that Hiro didn't mention that 2 brothers or 2 members of the same heya CAN fight each other in a honbasho if there is a playoff.  He said in a grand tournament, members of the same stable don't fight against one another.  True but not a complete answer.

Yes, it was great to see a danpatsu-shiki so close-up.  This is the closest I've ever seen.  Hiro really has connections!

Edited October 6, 2022 by sumojoann

[rhyen 1,846]

38 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Definitely speaking Mongolian, although even to my not-quite-so-educated ears, I detected quite a difference between Sokokurai's Inner Mongolian version of the language vs what's spoken in (Outer) Mongolia.  I even wonder if he could be understood by the other Mongolian rikishi (and Oyakata), all or most of whom I believe are from (Outer) Mongolia.

I was surprised that Hiro didn't mention that 2 brothers or 2 members of the same heya CAN fight each other in a honbasho if there is a playoff.  He said in a grand tournament, members of the same stable don't fight against one another.  True but not a complete answer.

Yes, it was great to see a danpatsu-shiki so close-up.  This is the closest I've ever seen.  Hiro really has connections!

The language is the same, maybe the slang and colloquialism have diverged?

[sumojoann 1,268]

2 hours ago, rhyen said:

The language is the same, maybe the slang and colloquialism have diverged?

To get into a detailed discussion of the tremendous differences in the Mongolian language that is spoken in Inner Mongolia vs the Mongolian language that is spoken in (Outer) Mongolia would put us waaayyyyyy Off-Topic.  There are profound differences and the subject cannot be looked at as if the discussion were about British English and American English, for example.  Here is just one article out of many that very clearly delved into the subject.

https://www.selenatravel.com/blog/the-differences-between-inner-mongolia-and-outer-mongolia

With that being said, let's return this thread to the subject of Hiro Morita's "Sumo Prime Time."  A further discussion of the Mongolian language can always be started with a new thread in the Off-Topic category.  Thanks.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

To be quick about it, IIRC there are about 4 dialects or variants of Mongolian, so while they may share a mutually intelligible base there may be just enough variation on it to throw speakers of different variants for a loop. 

I don't understand Mongolian so I can't provide an analogy, but for instance South East Asian Chinese dialects have picked up a lot of Malay loan words that would be alien to Chinese, Taiwanese and Hong Konger ears. And for that matter a lot of the Chinese dialects aren't mutually intelligible, although those in geographical proximity can be, with some difficulty, deciphered by "nearby" dialect speakers.

[Inside Sport Japan 762]

 

 

[sumojoann 1,268]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

To be quick about it, IIRC there are about 4 dialects or variants of Mongolian, so while they may share a mutually intelligible base there may be just enough variation on it to throw speakers of different variants for a loop. 

I don't understand Mongolian so I can't provide an analogy, but for instance South East Asian Chinese dialects have picked up a lot of Malay loan words that would be alien to Chinese, Taiwanese and Hong Konger ears. And for that matter a lot of the Chinese dialects aren't mutually intelligible, although those in geographical proximity can be, with some difficulty, deciphered by "nearby" dialect speakers.

Very interesting, and to also be quick about it, I would be interested in your opinion of the article to which I provided the link (see my previous post).  NOT the entire article, just the section concerning language, but only if you have time and the desire to read it.  And if this is too off-topic, maybe we could start a new thread in the Off-Topic category.

[code_number3 708]

2 hours ago, Inside Sport Japan said:

 

 

So, we'll have report on Sumo Fansa day on SPT.

[ryafuji 815]

I guess Hiro doesn't think it likely that the Onami brothers will ever meet in a playoff :) Also I couldn't help thinking that Sokokurai's years out of the Kyokai should have been mentioned. Of course you can understand why an official NSK channel wouldn't bring it up, but it was mentioned several times in the danpatsu-shiki itself (which I saw thanks to Chris Gould's video). 

[Seiyashi 4,108]

3 hours ago, ryafuji said:

I guess Hiro doesn't think it likely that the Onami brothers will ever meet in a playoff :) Also I couldn't help thinking that Sokokurai's years out of the Kyokai should have been mentioned. Of course you can understand why an official NSK channel wouldn't bring it up, but it was mentioned several times in the danpatsu-shiki itself (which I saw thanks to Chris Gould's video). 

More like SPT is dealing with 101 level content as well - a playoff would be a rarity they haven't covered yet, and Arashio's years out of the NSK, not only being a bit of an old shame, would be really hard to explain in a short video. Not only do they have to explain the yaocho scandal, they then have to explain how and why he was reinstated.

I hope they eventually get around to covering stuff like that, but considering they've barely had any downtime I'm not surprised how they haven't, and considering the NSK seems to be going on something of a publicity blitz to make up for the pandemic, I don't think they'll have much time going forward either. There's still the jungyō to cover between now and Kyūshū, and once that's done there'll be the basho itself. On the up side, if they do another set of banzuke and dohyō videos, then that's probably going to be the 201 - division composition, yokozuna-ōzeki (we'll have that soon at the current rate), dohyō matsuri, etcetc.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Inside Sport Japan 762]

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

considering they've barely had any downtime ...

This is the main point. It's just Hiro and Yusuke doing everything themselves.

They both looked shattered at one stage - especially Hiro who was new to the world of freelance content creation and making the mistake many do of not pacing yourself at the beginning. 

[BuBa 77]

On 05/10/2022 at 21:41, sumojoann said:

Definitely speaking Mongolian, although even to my not-quite-so-educated ears, I detected quite a difference between Sokokurai's Inner Mongolian version of the language vs what's spoken in (Outer) Mongolia.  I even wonder if he could be understood by the other Mongolian rikishi (and Oyakata), all or most of whom I believe are from (Outer) Mongolia.

I was surprised that Hiro didn't mention that 2 brothers or 2 members of the same heya CAN fight each other in a honbasho if there is a playoff.  He said in a grand tournament, members of the same stable don't fight against one another.  True but not a complete answer.

Yes, it was great to see a danpatsu-shiki so close-up.  This is the closest I've ever seen.  Hiro really has connections!

 His Mongolian is totally understandable by Mongolians from Mongolia. In fact, he is  inviting to event “Manai Mongolchuudaa” meaning “Our Mongols” referring to all of us in north and south. In general the majority of the South Mongolian dialects differ from Halh Mongolian only in pronunciation of few letters/sounds and is quite easy to understand by Mongolians in Mongolia. As far as I know even some of the Inner Mongolian state TVs and Radios broadcast in Halh Mongolian dialect. There are few exceptions though like dialects of Harchin and Horchin Mongols who historically lived longer close to Han Chinese and spoken fluently is rather hard to understand by the rest of us.  

[dingo 1,293]

13 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

More like SPT is dealing with 101 level content as well - a playoff would be a rarity they haven't covered yet, and Arashio's years out of the NSK, not only being a bit of an old shame, would be really hard to explain in a short video. Not only do they have to explain the yaocho scandal, they then have to explain how and why he was reinstated.

I hope they eventually get around to covering stuff like that, but considering they've barely had any downtime I'm not surprised how they haven't, and considering the NSK seems to be going on something of a publicity blitz to make up for the pandemic, I don't think they'll have much time going forward either. There's still the jungyō to cover between now and Kyūshū, and once that's done there'll be the basho itself. On the up side, if they do another set of banzuke and dohyō videos, then that's probably going to be the 201 - division composition, yokozuna-ōzeki (we'll have that soon at the current rate), dohyō matsuri, etcetc.

While it would be interesting, as others have mentioned previously there's basically zero chance of that happening. Sumo prime time is the NSK's official channel and therefore will only focus on the squeaky clean side of sumo. Which is not bad in itself; for the other side we have other sources starting with this excellent forum.