Hatsu 2023 discussion (results)

[I am the Yokozuna 193]

On 11/01/2023 at 19:49, Yubinhaad said:

An entertaining bout in Jonidan today, slender Najima was very active but Amamidake's greater mass (and patience) prevailed for a rare sabaori win, the first since 2017 Aki.

Sabaori?

I do not see it as a sabaori

Edited January 12, 2023 by I am the Yokozuna

[bettega 431]

9 hours ago, Faustonowaka said:

No, but if Abi does it it I wonder if they’ll promote him to Ozeki

I think they'll put him at S and promote him next basho, pending results

[bettega 431]

On 11/01/2023 at 14:49, Yubinhaad said:

An entertaining bout in Jonidan today, slender Najima was very active but Amamidake's greater mass (and patience) prevailed for a rare sabaori win, the first since 2017 Aki.

How we say "please don't leave me" in kimarite? 

[Reonito 1,469]

15 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Watching Abi go 5-0 today had me wondering: has any rikishi ever won back to back makuuchi yusho as a hiramaku? 

Futabayama and Terunofuji went back-to-back at S-O; everyone else was at least O in both basho

[Reonito 1,469]

13 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

So at least purely from the perspective of ōzeki guarding yūshō, Takakeishō has acquitted himself extremely well by historical ōzeki-only standards

OTOH, in the 3 years since he made Ozeki, we've had 6 maegashira yusho, as many as in the preceding 20 years. So one could certainly argue that he hasn't served as a "great barrier"

[Seiyashi 4,097]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

14 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

So at least purely from the perspective of ōzeki guarding yūshō, Takakeishō has acquitted himself extremely well by historical ōzeki-only standards

OTOH, in the 3 years since he made Ozeki, we've had 6 maegashira yusho, as many as in the preceding 20 years. So one could certainly argue that he hasn't served as a "great barrier"

With all due respect I think that's neither here nor there. I don't think the expectation on ōzeki is to literally win every yūshō that's not won by sanyaku. It's also not his fault that he's stuck with no yokozuna above him and two grossly underperforming colleagues (for whatever reasons) in Mitakeumi and Shōdai such that he's the only one between a maegashira and the Cup. If he had been of the calibre to hold up the top end of the banzuke and guard the Emperor's Cup all by himself, he'd have been wearing a rope by now, but I think we all agree that he was never the yokozuna-in-a-hurry type, and as Asashosakari has put it before, there's no sense wishing for a different rikishi we haven't got.

What we do have is an ōzeki that has acquitted himself relatively well by the standards of other rikishi that have held the rank, but he's just unfortunate to be the only one carrying the can when his historical counterparts have had yokozuna and ōzeki around them to split the load of guarding the Cup, and to do it in an era where there's so much parity at the top. Tokushōryū aside, every other winner has been at least sekiwake before, so it can't be said that those yūshō were so cheap that Takakeishō has entirely failed to live up to his rank.

As an aside, I don't know where this exactly fits, but it's interesting that an ōzeki, ex-ōzeki or ōzeki-to-be has been involved in every maegashira yūshō arasoi since Tokushōryū:

• Shōdai guarded Tokushōryū;
• Shōdai and Asanoyama were guarding Daieishō;
• Takakeishō was guarding Ichinojō and Abi; and
• Takayasu was also guarding Abi, as well as Tamawashi.

So at least Takakeishō had some help even if it wasn't always called ōzeki.

To me it goes back to the whole parity issue where everyone's good enough once in a while, but not consistently so, so that a whole range of characters are rotating in and out of the sanyaku ranks. That looks like it's going to happen again this basho, with Tamawashi and Daieishō performing well a basho after they were kicked out of komusubi, and their replacements looking absolutely terrible despite turning in good KKs for a few basho before their promotion - and they've been fighting the same crowd each time!

Just to be clear, going back to @Koorifuu's original post, I don't necessarily think that Takakeishō will be a great yokozuna, even if he does make it. My beef is with the contention that based on his ōzeki stats regarding yūshō, it would be a disgrace to promote him to yokozuna. I can sort of see the argument that by his yūshō honour strike rate he's not exactly the best yokozuna candidate, but by the standards of someone whose limit is ōzeki he's done very well. That would change if he gets promoted, but we shouldn't be pre-judging him based on a rank that he may not get; it's like trying to judge Hattorizakura by yokozuna standards, just less extreme.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Seiyashi 4,097]

Oh, and regarding Takakeishō avoiding the mawashi like the plague, he might not be doing that for much longer if that photo of him practising yotsu with Takanosho is anything to go by. Yeah, he won't be great at it, but surely even adding something rudimentary like maemawashi gaburiyori is going to do something for his tactical flexibility, right? 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Morty 1,495]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

OTOH, in the 3 years since he made Ozeki, we've had 6 maegashira yusho, as many as in the preceding 20 years. So one could certainly argue that he hasn't served as a "great barrier"

There have only been two ozeki yushos in the past 6 years! - One for Takakeisho and one for Terunofuji. So Takakeisho is at east doing better than the other half a dozen guys who have occupied that rank during that period. But in general it has been a poor period for the ozeki all over.

[Jakusotsu 5,981]

On 11/01/2023 at 11:20, Tigerboy1966 said:

Ochiai was impressive today, but he now faces a very different challenge against the hulking veteran Akiseyama, a man who,  two years ago, was beating the likes of Hoshoryu and Kotonowaka in the top flight. This is a fascinating match up. Who wins?

Well, Ochiai demonstrated he's not just a raging bull by applying a nice uchigake.

[Seiyashi 4,097]

No doubt it was highly entertaining for the fans, but should Asanoyama be having this much trouble with Rōga?

And speaking of Hokuseihō's languidity, not many rikishi can casually wave a hand about to fend off an opposing grip while staying apparently sky high as far as hips are concerned - and then end the bout in short order afterwards.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Seiyashi 4,097]

Also, NHK's broadcast is running some Gyōji Day special, where they're focusing more on the gyōji than usual, with biographical details and overlays giving details of the gyōji's shusshin and heya. They've also got closeups of the gyōji manning the PA as he makes the dohyō-iri announcements - it's newly-promoted jūryō gyōji, Kimura Kōzaburō, sitting just next to the dohyō.

For instance, Kimura Akijirō's costume bears Kasugano-oyakata's family mon, as well as the Georgian flag in honour of Tochinoshin.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Seiyashi 4,097]

Ohhhh, this is a good one. You can see the "this is gonna suck" expression on SI41's face as he points the gunbai, knowing there's a good chance it's going to be a sashichigae. Lucky for him it's not.

Power sumo from Hōshōryū, with a kime hold shutting down most of the match. This is yokozuna sumo, even if he lost.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Chartorenji 237]

18 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Ohhhh, this is a good one. You can see the "this is gonna suck" expression on SI41's face as he points the gunbai, knowing there's a good chance it's going to be a sashichigae. Lucky for him it's not.

Power sumo from Hōshōryū, with a kime hold shutting down most of the match. This is yokozuna sumo, even if he lost.

Hard to describe why Hoshoryu just looks dominate, but he is. He has the feel, the dominance, and just seems ready for Ozeki. 

[Edwardoho 23]

Not many great bouts in the top division today! 2 or 3? 

[Tigerboy1966 1,449]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

No doubt it was highly entertaining for the fans, but should Asanoyama be having this much trouble with Rōga?

Roga likes to give trouble to rebounding ex-ozeki. Remember Haru 2019?

[rokudenashi 323]

Tomorrow in Makushita we have Okinohama vs Oginohama, worth tuning in just to hear how well the yobidashi is able to distinguish between the two

[lackmaker 437]

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

No doubt it was highly entertaining for the fans, but should Asanoyama be having this much trouble with Rōga?

But he never looked like losing and Roga fought well.

[rhyen 1,842]

47 minutes ago, rokudenashi said:

Tomorrow in Makushita we have Okinohama vs Oginohama, worth tuning in just to hear how well the yobidashi is able to distinguish between the two

And a monoii just to see which poor shimpan also has to explain their decision. 

[Yamanashi 3,861]

9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

he's just unfortunate to be the only one carrying the can when his historical counterparts have had yokozuna and ōzeki around them to split the load of guarding the Cup

IMHO, it cuts both ways.  Harumafuji, Kisenosato and Kakuryu were not "lightning" Yokozuna who came up like meteors and took the rope by force (viz. Asashoryu and Hakuho).  Each spent their Ozeki-hood with up to four other Ozeki, and the logjam cleared (as I assume it must) by either moving up or moving down (Baruto, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku).  The thing is, if you're Ozeki Goeido competing in 2015 you have 6 other Y/O to clean the clocks of the Sanyaku and below.  Currently Takakeisho is the Yokozuna in terms of "guarding the Yusho" or whatever you want to call it.  However, if he has what it takes to become a Yokozuna, he has a much better situation than the above-mentioned fellows to take the final step.  If he can't take that step now, he doesn't have it.

[rokudenashi 323]

If Ochiai zenshō yūshōs and gets promoted, this will make him the first igaguri (shaved head/crew cut) sekitori in god knows how long - maybe the first ever? Not an easy “statistic” to look up… but thinking back to all the zanbara (hair not long enough to be tied up) sekitori in my head, they all at least had hair long enough to put bintsuke on. 

Will be quite the sight if it happens.

Edited January 13, 2023 by rokudenashi
English translations would be helpful

[Jakusotsu 5,981]

6 minutes ago, rokudenashi said:

If Ochiai zenshō yūshōs and gets promoted, this will make him the first igaguri sekitori in god knows how long - maybe the first ever? Not an easy “statistic” to look up… but thinking back to all the zanbara sekitori in my head, they all at least had hair long enough to put bintsuke on.

No idea what "igaguri" or "zanbara" means, but perhaps this is a starting point for investigation.

[Koorifuu 1,003]

27 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

No idea what "igaguri" or "zanbara" means, but perhaps this is a starting point for investigation.

According to Google and a Wikia database for a football/soccer manga, igaguri is chestnut burr and means shaved hair! So I presume zanbara is a mullet.

Anyway, this might also be relevant, depending on whether you want to believe things that old.

[Seiyashi 4,097]

42 minutes ago, rokudenashi said:

If Ochiai zenshō yūshōs and gets promoted, this will make him the first igaguri (shaved head/crew cut) sekitori in god knows how long - maybe the first ever? Not an easy “statistic” to look up… but thinking back to all the zanbara (hair not long enough to be tied up) sekitori in my head, they all at least had hair long enough to put bintsuke on. 

Will be quite the sight if it happens.

It's questionable yet whether the NSK has a rule against promoting to sekitori a Ms15TD zenshō, because the one time it happened, there were plausible alternative explanations for why the sad lad didn't get promoted.

[Yamanashi 3,861]

27 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

It's questionable yet whether the NSK has a rule against promoting to sekitori a Ms15TD zenshō, because the one time it happened, there were plausible alternative explanations for why the sad lad didn't get promoted.

My poor intuition tells me that there will always be a reason (plausible or otherwise) why a Ms15TD zensho won't be good enough for promotion.

[Akinomaki 40,605]

2 hours ago, rhyen said:

And a monoii just to see which poor shimpan also has to explain their decision. 

The shimpan take the easy path in the lower divisions, they hardly ever use the shikona, only say "the one from the east" higashi-gata, "the one from the west" nishi-gata