What makes a great ozeki?

[Jejima 1,414]

  On 26/07/2023 at 14:29, RabidJohn said:

Did I not state that I understand and respect your opinion?

  55 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

a) Meaningless. He faced the same opposition as his brother and stablemates. They also had it easier because they didn't have to face him, either.

This is neither understanding nor respecting, in my opinion.

I believe tiis exchange has unearthed another factor in what it takes to be a great ozeki: don't be a disappointment if you subsequently get the rope.

I have not said this, and it is not any point that I am trying to make.

Leicester City won the Premier League in 2016. Having been crowned champions, they disappointed in the future seasons, and have now been relegated to the division below. Am I allowed to say that subsequent to becoming champions, Leicester City were not on the same level as Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea etc, without denigrating their achievement of becoming champions?

(Okay, they didn't have the Futagoyama factor to help them* )

*This is tongue-in-cheek, and meant as humour to lighten this discussion. 

[Katooshu 3,330]

Not having to face a great yokozuna, a solid ozeki, and two of the best lower sanyaku/high maegashira every basho is indeed helpful when your rivals had to face all of them.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Katooshu

[RabidJohn 1,855]

  On 26/07/2023 at 09:17, RabidJohn said:

a) Meaningless.

Because sumo has ever been a team game in terms of its heya (and to a certain extent its ichimon). 

Back when I first started watching, Izutzu had Kirishima I, Sakahoko and Terao in the joi/sanyaku, and two yokozuna were from Kokonoe. 

Long before that it was Dewanoumi vs the rest!

Coming more into the present, I've no doubt Terunofuji's sekitori path was eased to some extent by not having to fight Homarefuji, Aminishi, Takarafuji or Harumafuji (and that's not intended to take anything away from his achievements).

Successful heya-mates helping each other up the banzuke is an observable phenomenon at pretty much all times - that's sumo.

Futagoyama's dominance through the 90s and into the noughties, therefore, has little bearing on my opinion that Wakanohana III was a bloody good ozeki before he became an extremely disappointing yokozuna.

[Jejima 1,414]

  On 26/07/2023 at 17:16, RabidJohn said:

Futagoyama's dominance through the 90s and into the noughties, therefore, has little bearing on my opinion that Wakanohana III was a bloody good ozeki before he became an extremely disappointing yokozuna.

So we can agree that Wakanohana was a disappointing Yokozuna? (I would not say extremely, as he did pick up a couple of jun-yushos in his brief tenure.)

I will also agree that Wakanohana was a good ozeki.

So, are we down to whether or not he was helped to the rank of Yokozuna, due to coming from Futagoyama-beya?

I would suggest that it was easier for him to reach this rank from Ozeki, than (say) Musashimaru - who was an Ozeki at the same time. 

If we look at their head-to-head records from that period of time --> <http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&amp;shikona1=musashimaru&amp;shikona2=wakanohana>, we can see that Musashimaru won 17 times (a couple whilst at Sekiwake) to Wakanohana's 8 times, whilst Wakanohana was ranked as an Ozeki. I would suggest that implies that Musashimaru was a better rikishi than Wakanohana.  After Wakanohana became Yokozuna, with Musashimaru remaining as an Ozeki, Musashimaru won three times, with Wakanohana only defeating him once, ranked at the top rank. When they were both ranked as Yokozunas, Musashimaru beat him the one time that they met.

I would surmise that if Musashimaru had been in Futagoyama-beya, he might have reached the rank of Yokozuna quicker than he actually did. Would you disagree?

 

[Jejima 1,414]

If Musashimaru could have avoided rikishi from Futagoyama-beya (and been given opponents from the M6 area instead), he would have won back-to-back yushos in January and March 1997, and presumably have been promoted to Yokozuna. This would have been over a year quicker than Wakanohana.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Jejima

[Yamanashi 3,903]

  On 26/07/2023 at 17:16, RabidJohn said:

Coming more into the present, I've no doubt Terunofuji's sekitori path was eased to some extent by not having to fight Homarefuji, Aminishi, Takarafuji or Harumafuji (and that's not intended to take anything away from his achievements).

Also, who doesn't recall the ashitori by Terutsuyoshi against Asanoyama in July 2020?  It just about gave the Yusho to Terunofuji.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

  On 26/07/2023 at 17:43, Jejima said:

So we can agree that Wakanohana was a disappointing Yokozuna? (I would not say extremely, as he did pick up a couple of jun-yushos in his brief tenure.)

I don't believe we disagreed on that. I also considered "sinfully", just because of that on-dohyo MK, but yeah, his first 4 yokozuna basho were far from bad.

  On 26/07/2023 at 17:43, Jejima said:

I will also agree that Wakanohana was a good ozeki.

Thank you.

  On 26/07/2023 at 17:43, Jejima said:

I would surmise that if Musashimaru had been in Futagoyama-beya, he might have reached the rank of Yokozuna quicker than he actually did. Would you disagree?

I don't disagree. <<sidesteps the what-if rabbit-hole>> Any rikishi ought to benefit from that kind of team advantage. 

Nor would I argue against Musashimaru being overall a more accomplished rikishi than Wakanohana. That he managed to succeed in spite of Futagoyama's dominance is a measure of that.

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

It's all moot to me. Takanohana, Akebono, Musashimaru, Wakanohana, Takanonami, Kaio, they have all been the cream of the crop when many of us started following sumo, and we didn't have the slightest idea that their rank wasn't set in stone.

[Reonito 1,519]

I remember when I started watching it seemed like there would always be 4 ozeki on the banzuke: Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Terunofuji and Goeido. I guess it actually lasted only 10 basho, but it just seemed like a permanent feature of the banzuke.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

I – for one – have conflicting thoughts about what makes a great Ozeki.

But I know it when I see one.

[bettega 431]

  On 26/07/2023 at 21:08, Reonito said:

I remember when I started watching it seemed like there would always be 4 ozeki on the banzuke: Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Terunofuji and Goeido. I guess it actually lasted only 10 basho, but it just seemed like a permanent feature of the banzuke.

"only"

[Seiyashi 4,108]

  On 26/07/2023 at 23:12, yorikiried by fate said:

I – for one – have conflicting thoughts about what makes a great Ozeki.

But I know it when I see one.

Quite ironically funny, but this reminds me of the attempt to define obscenity legally: I can't tell you what it is but I know it when I see it. 

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

  On 27/07/2023 at 01:12, Seiyashi said:

Quite ironically funny, but this reminds me of the attempt to define obscenity legally: I can't tell you what it is but I know it when I see it. 

No shit? (On both counts.)

[Bunbukuchagama 770]

  On 27/07/2023 at 01:12, Seiyashi said:

Quite ironically funny, but this reminds me of the attempt to define obscenity legally: I can't tell you what it is but I know it when I see it. 

It was pornography. 

[Jomangor 29]

  On 27/07/2023 at 02:00, Bunbukuchagama said:

It was pornography. 

That's correct. Here's the wiki link and here's the Ozeki-discussion-relevant passage from the beginning of the article:

The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was used in 1964 by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio.^[1][2] In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote:

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.^[3]

The expression became one of the best-known phrases in the history of the Supreme Court.^[4] Though "I know it when I see it" is widely cited as Stewart's test for "obscenity", he did not use the word "obscenity" himself in his short concurrence, but stated that he knew what fitted the "shorthand description" of "hard-core pornography" when he saw it.^[5]

Stewart's "I know it when I see it" standard was praised as "realistic and gallant"^[6] and an example of candor.^[7] It has also been critiqued as being potentially fallacious, due to individualistic arbitrariness.^[8][9]

This simple phrase, embedded in a plurality opinion, carries with it many of the conflicts and inconsistencies that continue to plague American obscenity law. In effect, "I know it when I see it" can still be paraphrased and unpacked as: "I know it when I see it, and someone else will know it when they see it, but what they see and what they know may or may not be what I see and what I know, and that's okay."

— William T. Goldberg

[Godango 1,014]

It would be best to create a separate thread to address the issue of obscenity/pornography clarification. This way, Bunbukuchagama can continue engaging in short disagreements on new topics that don't contribute to the original conversation. Meanwhile, we can focus on expanding our thoughts in a meaningful way on the original topic without distractions.

[Kotomiyama 174]

  On 26/07/2023 at 06:18, Asojima said:

The kadoban factor screws up the statistics.  An ozeki who is no longer in the yusho race has no incentive to risk injury by acquiring more than 8 wins.  A "good" ozeki plays the game well.  A "great" ozeki is one that is consistently in the late day yusho race.  These guys tend to become yokozunas.   Most ozekis are playing the 8 and out scenario.  In the late days of the basho, two 8 win ozekis are often matched.  This forces one of them to acquire a 9th win.  The yusho race and the late day matchups add warts to the expected win  stats

This makes me wonder: what is the probability of an Ozeki arriving with 8-6 at the senshuraku wins vs the probability of the rest of the banzuke in the same situation. Are ozekis playing safer once they get KK?

[Ripe 73]

  On 27/07/2023 at 20:15, Kotomiyama said:

This makes me wonder: what is the probability of an Ozeki arriving with 8-6 at the senshuraku wins vs the probability of the rest of the banzuke in the same situation. Are ozekis playing safer once they get KK?

Well, there is a whole OBSC (Ozeki Back Scratching Club) concept... whether it's meant as a joke or not, someone felt it's worth making the concept.

[I am the Yokozuna 194]

After having watched for so many years NHK, I have never heard the term great oozeki or dai oozeki or whatever, dai yokozuna, yes, but not dai oozeki. Why should we have dai oozeki. An ozeki should either try to make the yokozuna or just kachikoshi to retain his rank. 9-6 result in my mind is what is expected of an ozeki. Anything above that is meaningless, unless one is aiming for yokozuna. In my youth, I did not like what I perceived at the time as a lack of ambition in Kotoshu to take the grade up and become yokozuna. I thought he was calculating and only considering how to prolong his career at oozeki. So, is it a failure or a dai oozeki, I think he might be the latter after having been an ozeki for eight or so years. Then came Kakuryu, who I also did not understand and perceived for always calculating and measuring where and when to show up, but he became at first oozeki then an yokozuna and retired with five or six yushos under his name. Still cannot explain it, but I appreciate his measured performances. 

[Jejima 1,414]

  On 27/07/2023 at 20:41, Ripe said:

Well, there is a whole OBSC (Ozeki Back Scratching Club) concept... whether it's meant as a joke or not, someone felt it's worth making the concept.

That was me

Brought up in a jokey manner - but based on a decent amount of circumstantial evidence, if I recall. I am sure those statistically minded can go back to the numbers from that era, and back up the existence of the club - or otherwise. I, for one, would be interested in the findings, whatever they might be.

[Akinomaki 40,761]

  On 28/07/2023 at 06:51, I am the Yokozuna said:

After having watched for so many years NHK, I have never heard the term great oozeki or dai oozeki or whatever, dai yokozuna, yes, but not dai oozeki.

The term dai-ozeki 大大関 could never be constructed - the term for a great ozeki is mei-ozeki 名大関, famous ozeki, an ozeki who made himself a name

[Tsubame 368]

  On 28/07/2023 at 09:48, Akinomaki said:

The term dai-ozeki 大大関 could never be constructed - the term for a great ozeki is mei-ozeki 名大関, famous ozeki, an ozeki who made himself a name

Genuine question: Are there historical media instances which uses this phrase? 

[Akinomaki 40,761]

  On 28/07/2023 at 20:54, Tsubame said:

Genuine question: Are there historical media instances which uses this phrase? 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=名大関

[Gurowake 4,100]

  On 26/07/2023 at 00:17, Asashosakari said:

Your "it's just the last percent of the skill curve, so the differences within it should be minimal" implication is exactly backwards from reality. Hakuho is way further ahead of the average yokozuna than the average yokozuna is ahead of the average ozeki, yet by your logic Hakuho vs. average yokozuna is basically a distinction without difference, since we're now not even talking about the last percent, but even less than that. Skill differences get larger at the extremes, not smaller.

I'd like to highlight this, because when i first started following Sumo in the days of the dominance of Hakuho and to a lesser extent the other Mongolians and Kisenosato, the first few basho I played the prediction games I tended to shy away (where I had a choice) from predicting matches involving two of them, as it was rather unclear to me that there was much light in the gap of skill between any of them.  It wasn't until I built my prediction engine did I see just how far above the rest of the field Hakuho was compared to everyone else, as well as just how much Kisenosato/Kakuryu/Harumafuji were above the likes of Goeido and Kotoshogiku, and how close guys like Tochiozan, who had no advanced title, was to the latter.  At that time I had a lot of respect for the titles that they all had, but it wasn't until analyzing all the results that I could see just where the power levels lie.  I assume other fans will do something similar.

My point is, quite often the best non-Ozeki is just as good as than the worst Ozeki.  This was true, or almost, for a lot of the time Mitakeumi was Sekiwake and Goeido was Ozeki.  Quite often the best Ozeki is just as good as the worst Yokozuna, which was the case in between Kakuryu and Kisenosato's promotions.  Ranks reflect previous accomplishments, not one's potential, and the NSK don't give better titles than Yokozuna now that ichidai toshiyori will hopefully never be offered again.  That's why the fans and media have the "dai-Yokozuna" title, because Hakuho was clearly much better than the rest.  It's hard to compare across generations, but he was at least one tier above all the other dai-Yokozuna, and in some respect he might even have been two tiers above the weakest of them, who were in turn a tier above the mediocre yokozuna.

The slope of the skill curve is very shallow for a very long time, with there not being all that much difference between the bottom of Makuuchi and the top of Makushita, when compared to the difference between the average joi rikishi and the bottom of Makuuchi.  That's how someone like Akua can manage a KK in Makuuchi once even though he's really not at that skill level; vagaries of fortune can lead people to being much higher ranked than they "should" be.  Amuru managed a great late-career run up to M5, but he sunk as fast as he climbed because he was not nearly that good in reality - he just had a really good run.  For similar reasons, there's thus a desire to make sure that Ozeki are really cut out for the rank, and you have to assume that at the peak of their careers they can manage results at least one tier above what's manageable in general for them - thus the promotion criteria are much more stringent than the continuing criteria.  And that's why there should be more leniency to someone like Mitaekumi who puts up a long series of KKs with only occasional 10 wins or more where it's clear that he's able to maintain the rank and has occasional runs at the Yusho; I agree that he probably should have been promoted after the second Yusho.  In that sense, Goeido seems like an obvious choice with his long run at Sekiwake and then a 12-8-12 run, including beating someone on the final day who was in the Yusho race when he himself wasn't.

What you really can't possibly want is for every Ozeki to be a Yokozuna candidate.  We already get roughly 50% of Ozeki promoted to Yokozuna, and that's probably about the right place, as it's roughly in line with other promotion milestones being somewhere around that percentage.  People obviously recently are somewhat disappointed in how well the Ozeki have performed after getting there, but I can't really argue with any of their promotions.  Mitaekumi would have looked like a perfectly ordinary career Ozeki if promoted after the second Yusho, or at least not the complete failure of one that he ended up being when promoted right before a major decline in his ability, so we really should be more lenient, not less.  How many more people would have been promoted with slightly loosened criteria?

I think a major issue is that there's too much of a to-do made about becoming an Ozeki.  It's miles above anything you see for being first promoted into sanyaku, or Makuuchi, or Juryo.  If they didn't send a formal messenger, expect a short speech of how he'll uphold the rank, or give him all the other things that come with being Ozeki like a 3 year jun--toshiyori, and instead just treated it as another rank that you were expected to be demoted from instead of holding on to until retirement or promotion, and thus seen as a failure if you don't last 3 years at the rank, I don't think we'd be in such a large conversation about them. 

 

[808morgan 814]

  On 25/07/2023 at 06:52, Bunbukuchagama said:

We also need to consider quality of their competition. 

I am not a Takaken$ho fan, he is one dimensional and uninspiring