What makes a great ozeki?

[Yamanashi 3,866]

4 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I think a major issue is that there's too much of a to-do made about becoming an Ozeki. 

I understand making a big deal about becoming an Ozeki.

There are people who treat great competitors in individual sports -- golfers, snooker players, etc. - like they're semimythical or religious figures.  However, Sumo wrestlers actually are connected with religious ritual,  whether you (or they) believe in it or not.  The ritual of becoming an Ozeki is what makes Sumo unique.  The establishment of the rank of Yokozuna maybe has confused the issue (who can perform a Yokozuna dohyo-iri except a Yokozuna?), but the rank of Ozeki holds much more meaning to the sport of Sumo than, say, membership in the World Soccer Hall of Fame.

[Godango 996]

23 hours ago, Gurowake said:

 People obviously recently are somewhat disappointed in how well the Ozeki have performed after getting there, but I can't really argue with any of their promotions.  Mitaekumi would have looked like a perfectly ordinary career Ozeki if promoted after the second Yusho, or at least not the complete failure of one that he ended up being when promoted right before a major decline in his ability, so we really should be more lenient, not less.  How many more people would have been promoted with slightly loosened criteria?

First of all, I want to say that I totally agree with everything your full comment said, and I appreciate the level of thought and insight that went into it.

To your point on being more lenient, quite possibly yes. In my original comment (that started this the tangent that led to this post), I expressed that I wish they'd just have a firm official criteria of 33/3 for ozeki promotion. In reality, what I'd like is a firm criteria, or even multiple paths of criteria, that lead to promotion. It's the subjectivity that annoys me. If that criteria was more lenient, fine.

For example, 33/3 is a great run and deserves promotion. But to your point, 6 basho in sanyaku with KK and a yusho should also be a promotable criteria. (To be clear I'm not trying to put words in your mouth that you think that should be a criteria, but I wouldn't disagree if it were). 

Just a formal criteria would be nice. 

Again though, excellent post. Nailed it. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Godango

[I am the Yokozuna 193]

20 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The term dai-ozeki 大大関 could never be constructed - the term for a great ozeki is mei-ozeki 名大関, famous ozeki, an ozeki who made himself a name

That seems something different. There is meirikishi too as a phrase but along with meioozeki both imply a known or a popular not the strongest or the greatest rikishi. Takamisakari for example is meirikishi but no one would suggest he was a great one. 

[mugatake 44]

21 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The term dai-ozeki 大大関 could never be constructed - the term for a great ozeki is mei-ozeki 名大関, famous ozeki, an ozeki who made himself a name

I've seen it a few times, most memorably as a construction in Baki Dou.

Spoiler

You can also find people using it to describe Kaiou, Kisenosato and the like if you google around. By no means is it common, but people say it.

[Akinomaki 40,622]

2 hours ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

That seems something different. There is meirikishi too as a phrase but along with meioozeki both imply a known or a popular not the strongest or the greatest rikishi. Takamisakari for example is meirikishi but no one would suggest he was a great one. 

Not the strongest but the great ozeki. Ozeki per definition are in the area of the strongest and greatest, meiozeki excel among them, unlike with meirikishi it's a very fitting attribute of greatness. Meiyokozuna exist as well, especially among those who didn't make it to ten yusho(=daiyokozuna).

Meiozeki are seen as great ozeki, statistical definitions are unimportant for that. Here on the forum the foreign fans may look for it, but these statistics are soon forgotten while the fame remains. After all, great is a very subjective term.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Akinomaki

[yorikiried by fate 2,028]

37 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

After all, great is a very subjective term.

Particularly if a marketing team is involved...

Edited July 29, 2023 by yorikiried by fate

[I am the Yokozuna 193]

Unfortunately, that is not the case. It is a popular oozeki not a great one and while I cannot with a straight face say that I watched all sumo on NHK in the last 25 years, I can say that when I have, I have never heard the term. It seems for me a niche otaku word for a specific rikishi.

My point was though is that an ozeki is a great rikishi, so the question what makes a great ozeki is a strange one for me. Then I said that while there is a distinction between a Yokozuna and a great yokozuna there is no such for ozeki and your example does not bring any evidence to the contrary. You gave several talk shows as an example which deal with predominantly withWaka/Takanohana who of course were both successful and popular at the same time as oozekis. Why Waka is referred as the meioozeki and it the Yokozuna is interesting one to me at least.
 

And it all started with the off remark tgat Goeido was kind of a failed ozeki while achieving things like 15-0 zen yusho as all of them on a regular basis did during the Hakuho reign. I see now another comment that he was goofing around in his first two years while of course he scored a 12-3 during that those two years because all failing oozeki do that every second tournament while they are underperforming.

So much subjectivity for the simple fact that as an ozeki your task is either to retain the rank or to aim for Yokozuna. If you chose the former, you can achieve as many 8-7 results as you would like and that would be fine and no stats would prove you have been a miserable one.

[Akinomaki 40,622]

1 hour ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

Unfortunately, that is not the case. It is a popular oozeki not a great one and while I cannot with a straight face say that I watched all sumo on NHK in the last 25 years, I can say that when I have, I have never heard the term. It seems for me a niche otaku word for a specific rikishi.

You only hear the term in programs about ozeki of the past, usually not in a basho broadcast. Meiozeki is a term in general use and there are plenty of them in all eras https://www.google.com/search?as_epq=名大関

I would put the minimum qualification for that at one yusho as ozeki and holding the rank for about 4 years. Those promoted to yokozuna before that can't be called meiozeki, the others can.

Mei- is not simply popularity but fame. I've heard the term many times and while you're concept of greatness is definitely different, for me a meiozeki is a great one and that can be felt as the general perception in Japan as well. Fame makes you great in Japan, you don't have to be actually great.

You can see these perceptions in the spirited rikishi poll as well: the ones voted as having showed the most fighting spirit that day are usually not those the people on the forum think they showed it.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Akinomaki

[Godango 996]

1 hour ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

My point was though is that an ozeki is a great rikishi, so the question what makes a great ozeki is a strange one for me.

I find this really strange. This would only make sense to me if the question was "What makes a great Rikishi?", And your answer was "being ranked ozeki or higher".

I would agree with that, but that's not the question. To me that's analogous with answering the question of "What makes a great pizza?" with "A pizza is a great food, so the question of what makes a great pizza is a strange one for me".

1 hour ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

So much subjectivity for the simple fact that as an ozeki your task is either to retain the rank or to aim for Yokozuna. If you chose the former, you can achieve as many 8-7 results as you would like and that would be fine and no stats would prove you have been a miserable one.

Would it be fair to say then that your answer to what makes a great ozeki is "Retaining the rank or aiming for Yokozuna?". Because by that standard, I would agree Goeido was great, he held the rank a long time and went intai as soon as he lost it. A lot of respect for the rank and living up to it in that. 

[Yamanashi 3,866]

4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

You can see these perceptions in the spirited rikishi poll as well: the ones voted as having showed the most fighting spirit that day are usually not those the people on the forum think they showed it.

Very well put.  This is the distnction between "technical" or "professional" greatness and "popular" greatness.

One of us might watch Juryo bouts and say "what a magnificent kotehineri by Daiamami to save that bout!  I wonder if it will make the spirited rikishi list?"

The answer is "Squeeeeeeeee! ENHO!"

[Benevolance 2,501]

We all only wish we could be greeted entering a room the way the ladies greeted Kaio every time he stepped in the ring. 

[Gurowake 4,088]

12 hours ago, Godango said:

To your point on being more lenient, quite possibly yes. In my original comment (that started this the tangent that led to this post), I expressed that I wish they'd just have a firm official criteria of 33/3 for ozeki promotion. In reality, what I'd like is a firm criteria, or even multiple paths of criteria, that lead to promotion. It's the subjectivity that annoys me. If that criteria was more lenient, fine. 

I understand the frustration, and I can imagine that there's other fans who feel similarly that they never really know what's good enough for promotion until it happens.  However, I think that if there were hard and firm benchmarks that could be met, they could be gamed.  If you only need one more win, that's a great time to pull out a henka.  If you're facing a 8-6 Ozeki on senshuraku and need one more win, is there much doubt you're going to get it if the other guy knows for certain that the win will get you promoted?  It also would lead people to go in the opposite direction and say "Sure, he didn't meet the criteria, but the criteria aren't broad enough and don't cover every situation that might lead to someone looking like an Ozeki".  Even if you put a benchmark number required for every number of consecutive sanyaku KKs until promotion was automatic (say after 20), someone might slip a 7-8 in there between runs of double-digit wins and still look better than someone who had an 8-7 every tournament.  And then you have to account for times that a run started as a hiramaku. 

That's not to say that you can't come up with a set of criteria that covers absolutely every situation where someone might be seen as worthy of being an Ozeki, but the actual problem is that in Sumo winning isn't everything.  It might be the main way you move up the banzuke, but the essence of sumo is more along the lines of sumo-do than what we see in Ozumo.  If someone is making a mockery of the traditions and not practicing sumo-do properly, the powers that be are going to want to see a more dominant performance from them.  This isn't quite the same as the hinkaku required for Yokozuna, but I see it as similar.  There's a reason why new ozeki are required to say they will uphold the qualities of the rank or whatever it is they say.  If your sumo looks bad, they won't want to promote you even if that works for you to get results.

Most sports don't have a deep cultural undercurrent from pre-modern times, so there's nothing similar anywhere else.  In that sense, it's hard to even call sumo the same sort of thing as most other sports.

[Gurowake 4,088]

I'll also point out that I believe there has only been one case since I've been watching sumo where they announced beforehand if the rikishi won they would be promoted to Ozeki.  That was Goeido, and he was at 11-3 and faced Kotoshogiku at 12-2 who was level with Hakuho in the lead heading into Day 15.  There also was the case where they announced that Terunofuji would be promoted if he won the Yusho, but that wasn't just contingent on his own match, but also Hakuho's match and possibly a playoff.  I always thought it was a bit odd that they'd condition the promotion on the Yusho when it wasn't clear how many more matches he's need to win (at least one, but maybe two).  In the end he won his Day 15 match and his promotion was clinched when Hakuho lost to Harumafuji.

If there were any other times that they announced someone would be promoted with a win at a specific time when they weren't given a target ahead of time, I don't recall that situation.  There might have been other times where they might have been given targets as well, but I think in general those targets were more vague guidelines.  If anyone has any memory of situations where they gave very specific targets pre-basho, please speak up.

[Gospodin 191]

It´s interesting how the perception of Goeido has changed over the years. After all, as those who were around then might remember, the term Ozekiwake was coined here for him, for supposedly being better than Sekiwake, but not performing to Ozeki standards.

[Reonito 1,470]

14 hours ago, Godango said:

In my original comment (that started this the tangent that led to this post), I expressed that I wish they'd just have a firm official criteria of 33/3 for ozeki promotion. In reality, what I'd like is a firm criteria, or even multiple paths of criteria, that lead to promotion. It's the subjectivity that annoys me.

I'll just leave this here 

[Bunbukuchagama 732]

8 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I'll just leave this here 

April 1, 2022

 

[Reonito 1,470]

4 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

April 1, 2022

 

I know, I wrote it.

[Bunbukuchagama 732]

5 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I know, I wrote it.

Good job. I only decided to check the date after "the criteria would be applied retroactively".

 

[Reonito 1,470]

1 hour ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Good job. I only decided to check the date after "the criteria would be applied retroactively".

 

Yeah in hindsight I should have moved that paragraph after the algorithmic banzuke section 

[RabidJohn 1,795]

16 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Most sports don't have a deep cultural undercurrent from pre-modern times, so there's nothing similar anywhere else.  In that sense, it's hard to even call sumo the same sort of thing as most other sports.

I'm not a sports fan. Never have been. I don't follow football, rugby, cricket or anything else; not even e-sports based on games I've played.

I only follow ozumo. Why? Because rikishi are not mere sportsmen, but practitioners and representatives of a deep cultural heritage that fascinates me.

[Octofuji 357]

14 hours ago, Reonito said:

Yeah in hindsight I should have moved that paragraph after the algorithmic banzuke section 

I think you fooled enough of us as it was 

[Hoshotakamoto 259]

On 29/07/2023 at 12:48, Reonito said:

I know, I wrote it.

You inspired me to ... not exactly write stuff.

JSA Introduces New Sumo Rule: Wrestlers Must Grow Traditional 'Chonmage' Hair or Face Penalty

For immediate release, 1 April 2024

In a move certain to cause quite a stir, the Japan Sumo Association (JSA) announced today a mandatory regulation for all active sumo wrestlers to grow and maintain a traditional 'chonmage' or topknot hairstyle.

The chonmage, a form of Japanese traditional topknot, was a status symbol among sumo wrestlers during the Edo period. However, in recent times, several wrestlers have chosen to sport different hairstyles due to personal preference or hair growth difficulties.

The JSA, through this regulation, aims to resurrect this tradition as a means to preserve and strengthen the historical essence of the sport. Any wrestler failing to maintain a proper chonmage will face penalties, which could include demotion or even suspension.

"We believe the chonmage represents the dignity and grandeur of sumo. This rule will help to uphold these values," a JSA spokesperson said.

The announcement has led to a widespread discussion among fans and pundits alike. Many believe it's a step in the right direction to preserve the cultural heritage of the sport, while others argue it infringes on the wrestlers' personal choice.

In reaction to the announcement, top division wrestler Chiyotairyu, known for his shaven head, said, "It's going to be a hairy situation for me. However, if that's the rule, then I'll just have to grow with it."

As we approach the upcoming tournaments, the sumo world waits with bated breath to witness the return of the traditional chonmage in all its glory, while the barbers around the training stables prepare for an influx of topknot shaping appointments.

EDIT: i promise this was better than what was left on the cutting room floor https://chat.openai.com/share/a09ceebe-b291-407e-b6c4-d21c760df7da

Edited August 1, 2023 by Hoshotakamoto

[Octofuji 357]

"these are getting worse. can you do one that is better?"

By that point I could sense your despair 

[Chartorenji 237]

I'll throw in my two cents. A great Ozeki is someone who is consistently great but not excellent. Someone who is always a contender but not commonly the champion. Takakeisho is a great ozeki. Shodai was consistently not a good Ozeki. Mitakeumi was a terrible Ozeki. Asanoyama was a good Ozeki. Etc, etc. 

[just_some_guy 280]

On 29/07/2023 at 14:33, Gospodin said:

It´s interesting how the perception of Goeido has changed over the years. After all, as those who were around then might remember, the term Ozekiwake was coined here for him, for supposedly being better than Sekiwake, but not performing to Ozeki standards.

Part of his problem was existing in the shadow of three Yokozuna and Kisenosato (briefly a fourth as we know) along with Terunofuji and Kotoshogiku who had some very high ups to go with their downs. I jokingly used to call Goeido "Kaptain Kadoban" but given how the last handful of Ozeki have fared, he looks better by comparison.