Aki 2023 discussion (results)

[nagora 88]

8 minutes ago, Leoben said:

So if Takakeisho gets a 14-1 or a zensho (lol) in November do they promote him?

I don't think we need to worry too much about that.

It was weak, but I thought Atamifuji's focus was gone before the tachiai. He stumbled while doing his little ritual and seemed thrown off by the fact that an Ozeki wasn't interested in playing along to his tempo.

So we reached the destination I expected, we just didn't take the scenic route.

Edited September 24, 2023 by nagora

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

In his yusho interview, Takakeisho reasserted his intention to re-build his small body into one that doesn't get injured and aim again for Yokohama, praised Atamifuji as a strong, up-and-coming rikishi, and said he hadn't planned on henka-ing, but was going to do whatever it took to win. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Kaninoyama

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

13 minutes ago, Leoben said:

So if Takakeisho gets a 14-1 or a zensho (lol) in November do they promote him?

No.

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

5 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

he hadn't planned on henka-ing, but was going to do whatever it took to win. 

Ha-ha-ha, the "I wasn't planning it" defense. 

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

9 minutes ago, TheGunbaiHolder said:

Why so many henkas on Atamifuji? Is this some kind of "the new guy must not win" mentality? So disappointing ...

It's fear. They actually are afraid they cannot take him straight on.

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

7 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Takakeisho reasserted his intention to re-build his small body

It's short, but not small by any means. 

[hakutorizakura 590]

T also said that young Atamifuji reminds him of himself when he was around that age, he was very happy when he got the chance to face a strong rikishi. He wants to be that wall for Atamifuji and hopes that it will make them both stronger.

I wonder if they got prepared for the yusho interviews, sometimes it feels like the answers are very eloquent and not just like saying they will gambarize 

[Asashosakari 18,813]

6 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

No.

Please get real, of course they would.

[TheGunbaiHolder 25]

4 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

It's fear. They actually are afraid they cannot take him straight on.

I understand Takakeisho, but Abi didn't need the win so much. I am not sure Abi was so scared: even if he lost (as he did), no big deal for him.

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

4 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Please get real, of course they would.

1. An 11-4 yusho...

2. ...achieved in a playoff...

3. ...against a 21-year old M15 opponent...

4. ... through a henka. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

Just now, TheGunbaiHolder said:

I understand Takakeisho, but Abi didn't need the win so much. I am not sure Abi was so scared: even if he lost (as he did), no big deal for him.

I believe Abi henkas out of force of habit nowadays. 

[Asashosakari 18,813]

9 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

1. An 11-4 yusho...

2. ...achieved in a playoff...

3. ...against a 21-year old M15 opponent...

4. ... through a henka. 

Wrong opinions don't become any more correct through endless repetition, your seeming belief to the contrary since the playoff match happened notwithstanding.

[Hankegami 412]

52 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

You could see Takakeisho messing with the kid's mind in the preliminaries. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't want to see an ozeki dodging a M15, regardless of the stakes.

For what I could see, Takakeisho went out early and anyway well before putting his paws on the clay floor. I felt that Atamifuji rushed out to catch up, and the Hamster used that momentum. Where is that "both rikishi must put their bands on the clay before starting" gyoji when we need him?

51 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

That was a hell of a heel turn. It's also Takakeisho's fourth Yusho, his third as an Ozeki. Perspective matters and injuries sometimes skewer our perception towards him, but that's a damn good Ozeki overall. 

Also, with a fourth yusho he's officially the second best Ozeki in modern sumo history after Kaio. That's odd.

47 minutes ago, Leoben said:

So if Takakeisho gets a 14-1 or a zensho (lol) in November do they promote him?

44 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

I'm sure they would - the (YDC) rule is yusho in a row and you get promoted, but I'm also sure he'll never get 14 wins

33 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

No.

I'd dare to say yes, but only with a 15-0Y or 14-1Y. A 13-2Y or less would require at least a 12-3J in Hatsu. Let's be real, the NSK is craving for a Yokozuna and a Japanese one on top of that. They have to keep the bar high enough, however, so Takaeisho's 12-3D 12-3Y (24/30) was not enough last time around. But modern precedents show that standard promotion numbers for Yokozuna are either a 25/30 back-to-back yusho, or a 26/30 with equivalent. A 11-4Y - 14-1Y (25/30) would be well within precedents.

The actual point is that Takakeisho never racked up a 14-1 score in his whole career, even when he dearest Yok run was on the stake last Hatsu. We are really talking about hot air here.

EDIT: Second thought. With Takakeisho on a possible Yok run, Terunofuji will be pressured to enter Kyushu unless gravely injured. And we all know that even an 80% Teru eats up everyone, Hamsters included.

31 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

It's fear. They actually are afraid they cannot take him straight on.

Atamifuji grew considerably over the last six months. He went 13-2J (Juryo), 11-4Y (Juryo) and now 11-4D (Makuuchi). Even without the last score, it's natural for the joy-jin to think they are perhaps going to face an opponent with a great potential. On top of that, Abi is a guy who once dated a girl named Shame only to leave her crying at the first occasion, and Takakeisho just came out from his diving chamber for the playoffs. I am not really surprised for them to act wily, although 'Keisho should have been more graceful. He knows that a 11-4Y is good for him only to put yet another cup on his cupboard.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Hankegami

[Jakusotsu 5,816]

Yet another meh yusho soon to be forgotten, and the same is true for Juryo.

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

22 minutes ago, hakutorizakura said:

I wonder if they got prepared for the yusho interviews, sometimes it feels like the answers are very eloquent and not just like saying they will gambarize 

The nervous first-timers and foreign-borns tend to stumble through their interviews. The ones for whom the yusho wasn't their first rodeo seem to be able to rise to the occasion with better responses. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Kaninoyama

[Bunbukuchagama 690]

4 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Wrong opinions don't become any more correct through endless repetition, your seeming belief to the contrary since the playoff match happened notwithstanding.

My opinion will not prove objectively wrong unless he  becomes a Yokozuna after Kyushu. 

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

I'm torn.

I was rooting for Takakeishō to take the cup, but I hate henka and think they have no place whatsoever in a yusho deciding bout. But I dislike Atamifuji (and Hokuseihō), so anyone else winning would've been fine for me.
I'm pleased that Hōshōryū got his kachi-koshi and Kirishima cleared kadoban, and that Ura and Gōnoyama did well. Pity that Ōnosato didn't win the Juryo yusho this time.

[Godango 956]

The bigger promotion question is whether another 11-4 yusho via playoff would earn promotion. 

 

For what it's worth, I think yes. That's two yusho or equivalent. We've never seen 22 wins to get there so sure it's unprecedented, but it's by the book. 

 

[Asashosakari 18,813]

On another topic: I'm still trying to figure out what to think about Onosato. It's clear that he's a prodigy with immense talent, but his approach to bouts confuses me. It's like he believes that nobody could possibly be at his level and he just needs to run them over. A healthy amount of self-belief is great and all, but he seems to be doing it to the extent that he doesn't think he'll ever need a plan B. And, differently to e.g. Hokuseiho where it's been more a question of "could he execute a plan B?", I'm absolutely convinced that it's not a question of ability with Onosato. That approach may have worked in the lower depth environment of collegiate sumo, but I'm afraid he'll be presented with a big wake-up call before too long if he doesn't become a bit more mindful of his opponents' strengths.

[Akinomaki 39,856]

Ajigawa's Anosho with the 2nd 7-0 yusho 14 straight wins from the start (+ 3 maezumo wins), and the heya is top, a top foreigner prospect as well - I guess Aminishiki in the future will overtake Isegahama, maybe even absorb it one time

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Godango or Reonito can correct me on this, but I believe a 25 win total is a very weak yokozuna promotion case. Even if it's double yūshō, can't the YDC exercise the discretion not to promote based on hinkaku? 

[Akinomaki 39,856]

4 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Godango or Reonito can correct me on this, but I believe a 25 win total is a very weak yokozuna promotion case. Even if it's double yūshō, can't the YDC exercise the discretion not to promote based on hinkaku? 

The YDC has to propose his promotion also with a double 11-4Y, they have a codified rule, but they don't promote and the NSK doesn't have to condone their proposal

[Hankegami 412]

3 minutes ago, Godango said:

The bigger promotion question is whether another 11-4 yusho via playoff would earn promotion. 

 

For what it's worth, I think yes. That's two yusho or equivalent. We've never seen 22 wins to get there so sure it's unprecedented, but it's by the book. 

I think it's highly unlikely to ever happen. A 11-4Y literally happened only thrice since the 15 day basho era before today - now four times (here). Last time it happened was Kyushu 2017 (Harumafuji), before that Kyushu 1996 (Musashimaru), and the first occurrence was Hatsu 1972 (Tochiazuma I). That is, four times in 51 years and 304 basho (306 minus Haru 2011 and Natsu 2020). That's a 1,3% incidence. Also, I think that Terunofuji will be pressed to enter Kyushu. If he's anywhere in a good form, the yusho threshold will raise considerably.

[Gospodin 187]

46 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

1. An 11-4 yusho...

2. ...achieved in a playoff...

3. ...against a 21-year old M15 opponent...

4. ... through a henka. 

The only thing that means is he will need a second yusho to be promoted.

Which he will not get.

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

28 minutes ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

But I dislike Atamifuji

What on earth is there to dislike about Atamifuji?