Old tsukedashi and Height/weight requirements scrapped

[Akinomaki 40,768]

It took quite some time for the tabloids to comment on this, Weekly Post found a young oyakata for some remarks to their liking http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20231012_1910698.html

- mostly like I had guessed

"It went so far that the sumo stronghold university clubs had members hand over titles among each other to have as many from the club as possible to get a tsukedashi qualification. With rikishi from university background becoming sekitori within one year, complaints appear like "they don't know how to fold a kimono" "they have no experience as chanko-ban".

And that they mostly enter heya with big money or with OBs as an oyakata at the heya is likely not unrelated to the present change. From now on they can't get to sekitori that easy."

The change is seen to be especially targeted at Miyagino-beya, not so much Nishonoseki-beya: "That corporate sumo was removed is very interesting. Hakuoho after graduation was a member at the company of his father and became corporate yokozuna. Only 4 corporate yokozuna went into ozumo, also Ichinojo (working for the Tottori pref. sports association) and Daiamami (as Nichidai staff) - this loophole has now been closed. And nobody can make it to sekitori in one basho anymore"

- or nobody remembers that Choijil still has the chance

"Hakuho makes use of several routes, he has connections to Nichidai, via Magaki to Tottori Johoku high, and the Hakuho-cup - he can have his prospects after middle school graduation go to Tottori Johoku and also Nichidai before they join the heya. And he can have foreigners go to the middle-, high school and university route to have the 10 years in Japan and not be counted as foreigners. It looks like he's about to assemble Mongolian hopefuls in his heya like this."

- so maybe the NSK will stop to acknowledge foreigners like Hokuseiho in the future, especially when next year Hakuho's nephew joins like that

"The stop of the speed promotion for university rikishi may be because the NSK administration feared the increasing influence Miyagino gets by building up a force of strong university prospects etc."

- the first corporate yokozuna to join ozumo as ms15TD Takamifuji had the ms15TD as student yokozuna in 4th year, but didn't join to be in the 2005 kokutai in his home prefecture - after which he would be too old, then became corporate yokozuna while working for the prefecture, preparing the kokutai - and changed his mind and joined - wiki/高見藤英希

[Yarimotsu 591]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

so maybe the NSK will stop to acknowledge foreigners like Hokuseiho in the future, especially when next year Hakuho's nephew joins like that

Are they allowed to do this? As far as I understand these are naturalised Japanese citizens... not immune from discrimination by rule themselves, but wouldn't it be pretty unprecedented to single those people out by their heritage?

 

Edit to add my own thoughts on the overall tabloid gossip: I don't really see why these rule changes so far would even negatively impact Miyagino. If anything, they make it easier for him to get his prospects into sumo while his memory is still hyper-popular. Mostly it just seems like a poorly informed speculation, but nevertheless an interesting read.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Yarimotsu

[Bunbukuchagama 770]

3 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Are they allowed to do this? As far as I understand these are naturalised Japanese citizens... not immune from discrimination by rule themselves, but wouldn't it be pretty unprecedented to single those people out by their heritage?

Isn't it just an arbitrary number of years you have to spend in Japan before joining ozumo rather than actual naturalization?

[Bunbukuchagama 770]

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

"It went so far that the sumo stronghold university clubs had members hand over titles among each other to have as many from the club as possible to get a tsukedashi qualification. With rikishi from university background becoming sekitori within one year, complaints appear like "they don't know how to fold a kimono" "they have no experience as chanko-ban".

And that they mostly enter heya with big money or with OBs as an oyakata at the heya is likely not unrelated to the present change. From now on they can't get to sekitori that easy."

Oh no, they don't even know how to make good chanko! How can they hope to become good wrestlers?!

 

[Asashosakari 19,651]

Hard to believe Shukan Post still has enough readers willing to believe all that nonsense to make it worthwhile printing it. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

5 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Are they allowed to do this? As far as I understand these are naturalised Japanese citizens... not immune from discrimination by rule themselves, but wouldn't it be pretty unprecedented to single those people out by their heritage?

 

Edit to add my own thoughts on the overall tabloid gossip: I don't really see why these rule changes so far would even negatively impact Miyagino. If anything, they make it easier for him to get his prospects into sumo while his memory is still hyper-popular. Mostly it just seems like a poorly informed speculation, but nevertheless an interesting read.

I think they just really want the storyline of ‘Hakuho tries to take control of NSK through various Machiavellian means, gets blocked and fails, throws all the toys out of the pram and leaves the kyokai’ to come true.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

45 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I think they just really want the storyline of ‘Hakuho tries to take control of NSK through various Machiavellian means, gets blocked and fails, throws all the toys out of the pram and leaves the kyokai’ to come true.

The best part is the idea that Hakuho will be scheming to get promising Mongolians over to Japan to attend middle school. Yeah, I'm sure there's just tons of parents who are going to send their 12-year-olds on the promise of them becoming professional rikishi 10+ years later.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Katooshu 3,332]

All the formerly sandanme tsukedashi will now debut in makushita - we would've seen the likes of Asanoyama, Gonoyama, Yutakayama, Kinbozan, Asakoryu, Tohakuryu, Wakatakakage, etc. up the ranks even faster. Heck, some rikishi who started in maezumo would now start all the way up in makushita - e.g. Hokutofuji and Shodai.

Another big batch that would've started in maezumo will now start in sandanme - we would've seen the likes of Takahashi, Tokihayate, Kazekeno, and Haruyama moved up significantly. 

More high schoolers than ever will also be eligible for a sandanme debut - hardly any were earning this through the All-Japans, a once every decade type of occurrence, but now we'll have at least 4 and possibly 8 a year through the Kokutai and Interhigh; probably it will be in the middle of that due to result overlap. Gonoumi, who competed in sandanme last basho, would've debuted there back in January.

Overall the change enables far more rank skipping for hotshot amateurs, which is ironic if the intention is really to make them pay their dues. The only people who will be negatively impacted are the major championship winners, of which there are limited numbers, and many of whom can probably rocket up from low makushita anyway. 

Overall I like the changes, but that's because I think it will encourage more highly experienced amateur competitors (the ones old schoolers see as arrogantly set in their ways) to join.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Katooshu

[Asashosakari 19,651]

23 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

All the formerly sandanme tsukedashi will now debut in makushita - we would've seen the likes of Asanoyama, Gonoyama, Yutakayama, Kinbozan, Asakoryu, Tohakuryu, Wakatakakage, etc. up the ranks even faster. Heck, some rikishi who started in maezumo would now start all the way up in makushita - e.g. Hokutofuji and Shodai.

Another big batch that would've started in maezumo will now start in sandanme - we would've seen the likes of Takahashi, Tokihayate, Kazekeno, and Haruyama moved up significantly. 

Do you happen to know which of the last four 21-0 starters would have qualified for SdTd under the new rules?

Edit: How the SdTd guys will do, and how many of them there are going to be in the first place, is actually what I'm most curious about with the new rules. Ms60 won't be working out materially different from how it was before 2001, I reckon.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Yamanashi 3,903]

It's not easy to know what the ramifications of this new system will be [well, not for dummies like me!]

If there are many new Sandanme/Makushita newcomers, will the lowest two ranks collapse?  In don't know; however, two outcomes come to mind:

1) Jonidan is comprised of even more higher-ranked rikishi declining due to injury/age.

2) There will be fewer hotshots shooting up through these divisions, which gives more positive experience to the regular kids from middle school or high school who enter through Maezumo.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

3 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

If there are many new Sandanme/Makushita newcomers, will the lowest two ranks collapse?

Not really. Once the new guys are slotted into the banzuke properly, they'll just push down other guys. (Which they would be doing without the accelerated start anyway, just a few tournaments later.)

[Yamanashi 3,903]

1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

Not really. Once the new guys are slotted into the banzuke properly, they'll just push down other guys. (Which they would be doing without the accelerated start anyway, just a few tournaments later.)

You're right.  I'm just wondering about the long-term effects of having a much more obvious two-track entry system.

[Asashosakari 19,651]

12 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

You're right.  I'm just wondering about the long-term effects of having a much more obvious two-track entry system.

It's not like it's taking anything away from those who still have to start from maezumo. And for the vast majority of them, starting down there is appropriate, too.

I mean, it's theoretically possible to, say, start everybody at the bottom of sandanme, and then the "good" rookies will immediately start moving up and the "not so good" ones will be moving down. (Similarly to how most attempts to create Elo ratings for sumo are starting with a newcomer base rating that's significantly higher than what's found in actual jonokuchi-caliber rikishi.) But I wouldn't consider that a particularly good system. It's nice when most rikishi get to spend at least a few tournaments moving up the rankings before they hit their personal wall. The rationale for putting guys with significant amateur accomplishments at Ms60 or Sd90 is that everybody already knows that their personal wall isn't going to be in jonidan, so there's no point testing them for it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Katooshu 3,332]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Do you happen to know which of the last four 21-0 starters would have qualified for SdTd under the new rules?

Edit: How the SdTd guys will do, and how many of them there are going to be in the first place, is actually what I'm most curious about with the new rules. Ms60 won't be working out materially different from how it was before 2001, I reckon.

Only Enho.

Motobayashi met the criteria a number of times for SdTD and MsTD60, but unfortunately for him never in his final year. If the eligibility period lasted two years he would've started in makushita.

Hokuseiho had best 8 at the Interhigh and Kokutai, so missed out by just a win.

Fujiseiun had an unaccomplished college career - I don't know that he ever made a top 16 at any national event.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Katooshu

[Akinomaki 40,768]

9 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Are they allowed to do this? As far as I understand these are naturalised Japanese citizens... not immune from discrimination by rule themselves, but wouldn't it be pretty unprecedented to single those people out by their heritage?

Most are not naturalized, after 10 years they only have a permanent residence permit and could become Japanese citizens right away. There haven't been reports that Hokuseiho or others are Japanese by now, like it was reported for Iima/Agora. The rikishi that become Japanese citizens later to be able to be an oyakata are not treated as with Japanese shusshin then, but foreigners like Hokuseiho are. In the past to be a naturalised Japanese citizen meant to be exempt from the foreigner quota for a while, till they changed the rule to stop that. They are not forced to grant youngsters like Hokuseiho the Japanese shusshin, in fact it was a surprise that they did - so if the Weekly Post is in some way close to reality, such a change can happen.  I don't think though that it will happen.

[dingo 1,294]

I've always regarded the Kyokai's view of shusshin as rather conservative and deterministic. As in, shusshin is defined by the place a rikishi was born and his "blood" so to say, maybe to some extent spiritual and cultural upbringing. Mostly a mix of everything I guess. I'm sure there's exceptions (Taiho?) but to me it feels that most of the time they view shusshin as something settled on birth. 

[Ryoshishokunin 323]

11 minutes ago, dingo said:

I've always regarded the Kyokai's view of shusshin as rather conservative and deterministic. As in, shusshin is defined by the place a rikishi was born and his "blood" so to say, maybe to some extent spiritual and cultural upbringing. Mostly a mix of everything I guess. I'm sure there's exceptions (Taiho?) but to me it feels that most of the time they view shusshin as something settled on birth. 

It's not just the Kyokai: your 'hometown' is a japanese legal concept that goes with your family registration.  It's much easier to change than it used to be, but the idea that you were "from somewhere" dates back to feudal times (and attitudes).  You are/were "from" where your parents are from, even over generations, in the same way that the "London Irish" are still Irish.  

It's a thing. 

And for Japanese people, really easy to define, since you can just go look it up on their registration forms.  However, given that foreigners don't *have* the same kind of registration forms, the Kyokai gets to make up their own nonsense.  

[Yamanashi 3,903]

The word gets out to the American press:

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/skinny-sumo-wrestlers-height-weight-requirements-dropped-governing-body

 

https://www.outkick.com/my-beloved-japanese-sumo-wrestling-is-in-danger-of-being-infiltrated-by-soy-boys/

 

[mt fuji 976]

Sumo wrestlers are already soy boys anyways, isn't there tofu in chanko?

[Katooshu 3,332]

Ah, yes, rikishi wear diapers. You can bet that I certainly kept reading beyond that point.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Katooshu

[Akinomaki 40,768]

1 hour ago, mt fuji said:

Sumo wrestlers are already soy boys anyways, isn't there tofu in chanko?

Don't forget natto, nothing better

[yohcun 401]

4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

https://www.outkick.com/my-beloved-japanese-sumo-wrestling-is-in-danger-of-being-infiltrated-by-soy-boys/

Not sure I've ever wanted to click on anything less in my life.

[Koorifuu 1,020]

12 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Ah, yes, rikishi wear diapers. You can bet that I certainly kept reading beyond that point.

Immediately followed by a virtuous display of linguistic proficiency, "I was shook".

[Reonito 1,519]

1 hour ago, Koorifuu said:

Immediately followed by a virtuous display of linguistic proficiency, "I was shook".

"a sport I’ve come to love"

yet clearly unaware of the existence of lower divisions

[Akinomaki 40,768]

On 28/09/2023 at 22:39, Akinomaki said:

newer ones that report the decision imply they changed the system as of today. Certainly all of this year's results will be treated according to the new rules, so the top 4 at the interhigh get the sdTD - only 1 is a third year though, Hasegawa from Goshogawara high. Maybe with this new knowledge, the 3rd years gambarize a bit more next month at the kokutai juniors - and the (young enough among the) 8 with qualifications at the corporate championships lost them today. 

Now it gets interesting: Hasegawa joins Ajigawa-beya for Kyushu - and is reported to start in maezumo http://mutsushimpo.com/news/vv6nxtpg/

Either he is an idiot or the writer - or Ajigawa wants him to forfeit the sandanme start.