Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[Kintamayama 45,495]

IIRC, Houkahou and Ishiura went at each other a few years ago during training- there must have ben some background story to that.  And Ootani was reported as being a bully. Just remembered that-so it really isn't something new at the ex-heya. 

[arkinso 11]

I should first explain that I have never been to Japan, does not speak the language, and does not know much about its culture. I just love sumo.

So I read all the different opinions about the treatment of Hakuho, those who think that he earned this punishment justly, and those who believe it is a testimony of the xenophobia of the Japanese people, and I am trying to decide whose right based solely on the arguments people put forward.

I must say I do not think that those who support Hakuho have much of a case. If one of my kids hit another, and it's an unexpected and rare occurance, than it's not my fault. If it's going on for a long time and I know about it but does nothing to stop it, I am responsible for it. But if I fail to be at home, and leave my psychopath favorite kid to abuse his brothers, it a case for welfare an possibly the police

Perhaps the Japanese people hate foreigners, but this case does not justify this accusation.

[RabidJohn 1,853]

1 hour ago, arkinso said:

Perhaps the Japanese people hate foreigners, but this case does not justify this accusation.

You're right. Miyagino-oyakata is being dealt with in this manner solely because of who he is now and who he used to be on the dohyo. Other oyakata of gaijin origin are getting on just fine.

What's been most puzzling to me is the NSK not taking the opportunity to just get rid of him under the terms of the contract they made him sign, and equally moto-Hakuho taking it on the chin rather than walking.

I'm patient enough to wait and watch how this all shakes out, because it's not over yet...

Edited March 29, 2024 by RabidJohn

[Fashiritētā 184]

I could be wrong, but Hakuho has the Hakuho Cup, lots of Oyakata(even ones that don’t like Hakuho) use the tournament to recruit deshi.

Love him or hate him , Hakuho is a cash cow, easier to punish him than lose him.

[Asashosakari 19,647]

31 minutes ago, Fashiritētā said:

I could be wrong, but Hakuho has the Hakuho Cup, lots of Oyakata(even ones that don’t like Hakuho) use the tournament to recruit deshi.

The Hakuho Cup is nice to have, but it's hardly essential to anything. All the kids that post relevant results there are just as prominent in other youth sumo events. Hakuho is just assembling the kids in one place, he's not discovering them.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,647]

17 hours ago, incognito said:

I am curious how this works for Hakuho financially. Will he or Isegahama receive payment for his rikishi? Presumably Isegahama will, so is Hakuho going to have to close his heya's doors? Yea he's wealthy af, but paying for an empty stable for months, potentially years seems ridiculous. But the location is also symbolic, so I don't see him selling it either

Which symbolic aspects are you referring to? I have a feeling that a few facts have got mixed up here, but I'm unsure what exactly.

[Asashosakari 19,647]

I couldn't find it in this lengthy thread just now, but as part of the Hokuseiho investigation committee's summary it was mentioned that some TV production guy involved with Miyagino-beya had unsuccessfully tried to intimidate the heya's wrestlers into staying quiet. In any case, it has now been reported that his employers have strongly reprimanded him (厳重注意); he is said to have shown remorse about his behaviour.
 

On 07/03/2024 at 18:03, Akinomaki said:

He can forget the plan for a new heya in Nihonbashi for now, apparently the premises bought for him by a tanimachi will stay a parking lot for a few years.

zakzak.co.jp/article/20240307-H3BAQJJ7PJNHNDHCPEUGNFSR6Y/

https://smart-flash.jp/sports/276646/1/1/

That topic has now made its way to the reputable papers with Nikkan talking about it, albeit with no more details than the tabloids had a month ago.

Meanwhile, Sponichi claims that as many as five more Miyagino rikishi may retire instead of moving to Isegahama, but what the article says sounds like little more than a wild guess, so we're probably better off seeing what Natsu basho actually looks like.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Kaninoyama 1,817]

10 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

What's been most puzzling to me is the NSK not taking the opportunity to just get rid of him under the terms of the contract they made him sign, and equally moto-Hakuho taking it on the chin rather than walking.

This is basically what I have been trying to say. It's just a bizarre situation all around. 

[Churaumi 745]

11 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

What's been most puzzling to me is the NSK not taking the opportunity to just get rid of him under the terms of the contract they made him sign, and equally moto-Hakuho taking it on the chin rather than walking.

Maybe if the Kyokai had manufactured something, or closed the door on his future as a stablemaster I could see him rage quitting. But Hokuseiho was being a terror. And the Kyokai sending him to learn from a successful oyakata. It's basically them giving him a second chance. Maybe he'll bail if it looks like the Kyokai doesn't mean it, and tries to relegate him to supportingoyakata roles?

[Yamanashi 3,903]

5 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Meanwhile, Sponichi claims that as many as five more Miyagino rikishi may retire instead of moving to Isegahama, but what the article says sounds like little more than a wild guess, so we're probably better off seeing what Natsu basho actually looks like.

About 50% of the coverage I'm receiving through the Forum from these "news" sources is like this; we'll know about this claim for sure a month from now, so it all seems like mere clickbait.

[Seiyashi 4,108]

6 hours ago, Churaumi said:

18 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

What's been most puzzling to me is the NSK not taking the opportunity to just get rid of him under the terms of the contract they made him sign, and equally moto-Hakuho taking it on the chin rather than walking.

Maybe if the Kyokai had manufactured something, or closed the door on his future as a stablemaster I could see him rage quitting. But Hokuseiho was being a terror. And the Kyokai sending him to learn from a successful oyakata. It's basically them giving him a second chance. Maybe he'll bail if it looks like the Kyokai doesn't mean it, and tries to relegate him to supportingoyakata roles?

I think it makes sense if you come at it from this angle: the NSK knows that Hakuhō's their golden goose in terms of individual brand power (e.g. look at that spanking brand new yūshō parade car), but it's also precisely because of the commitments from this brand power (events, talkshows, meeting sponsors etc) that caused his lack of supervision. And Hakuhō himself also knows it that he's caught dead to rights here, because Hokuseihō's bullying was some of the longest and worst that we've heard of for a while. The NSK doesn't want to kill the golden goose but they also can't let it slide for two reasons - one of public image (they can't be seen to be doing nothing) and another of making sure Hakuhō knows they can do something to him - so this. It really is the least worst option for both parties, all things considered, and Hakuhō got off relatively lightly.

[Kaninoyama 1,817]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

the NSK knows that Hakuhō's their golden goose in terms of individual brand power (e.g. look at that spanking brand new yūshō parade car), but it's also precisely because of the commitments from this brand power (events, talkshows, meeting sponsors etc) that caused his lack of supervision

Is this really true though?

Here in Japan, my observation is that Hakuho/Miyagino is not at all popular, and among the Japanese sumo fans with whom I regularly interact, not a one of them can stand Hakuho. I would guess that my small sample size is reflective of the sentiment of the sumo fan population at large. Furthermore, I can't remember having seen him once appear on any show where rikishi or former rikishi regularly appear since he retired. 

Conversely, ex-Kisenosato is hugely popular, tirelessly appears at events and on shows and welcomes and endless stream of heya visitors, and yet somehow has no problem running his huge, two-ring stable full of thriving, well-behaved rikishi. I would say that he, not Hakuho, is the real golden goose.

It just doesn't feel like many sumo Japanese fans would miss Hakuho if he disappeared to Mongolia tomorrow. And I doubt most of the NSK elders would either. 

The one thing I do agree with you on is that it would be a horrible look for the NSK if yet another legendary yokozuna fell from grace due to bad behavior, and so I can only conclude that the motivation to save Hakuho is more  to protect the sport's image than anything else. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by Kaninoyama

[Asashosakari 19,647]

53 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Is this really true though?

Here in Japan, my observation is that Hakuho/Miyagino is not at all popular, and among the Japanese sumo fans with whom I regularly interact, not a one of them can stand Hakuho. I would guess that my small sample size is reflective of the sentiment of the sumo fan population at large. Furthermore, I can't remember having seen him once appear on any show where rikishi or former rikishi regularly appear since he retired. 

I do have to ask, are these long-time, committed fans of sumo you're talking to, or more casual ones? At least among foreign fans there's definitely a stark contrast between those of us who've been around for a while and seen other greats (and also seen other greats screw up), and many of the people who populate the Casual Fan HQs like Reddit and Chris Gould's comment sections, where Hakuho is unironically referred to as "our guy" and even more cringy appellations.

Edited March 30, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Kaninoyama 1,817]

13 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I do have to ask, are these long-time, committed fans of sumo you're talking to, or more casual ones? At least among foreign fans there's definitely a stark contrast between those of us who've been around for a while and seen other greats (and also seen other greats screw up), and many of the people who populate the Casual Fan HQs like Reddit and Chris Gould's comment sections, where Hakuho is unironically referred to as "our guy" and even more cringy appellations.

The fans I interact with are indeed longtime fans. Most them on the older side. Japanese, and have been watching sumo for decades. Their main complaint about Hakuho is, not surprisingly, his past behavior on the dohyo. That is to say, his lack of "hinkaku" as a Yokozuna. I'm sure the most recent development as Oyakata has only further solidified their view. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by Kaninoyama

[Katooshu 3,325]

14 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I do have to ask, are these long-time, committed fans of sumo you're talking to, or more casual ones? At least among foreign fans there's definitely a stark contrast between those of us who've been around for a while and seen other greats (and also seen other greats screw up), and many of the people who populate the Casual Fan HQs like Reddit and Chris Gould's comment sections, where Hakuho is unironically referred to as "our guy" and even more cringy appellations.

Indeed, apparently all of this is happening because the higher ups in sumo are jealous of Hakuho, my YouTube inside sources tell me 

Edited March 31, 2024 by Katooshu

[John Gunning 3,657]

On 29/03/2024 at 05:45, incognito said:

do crossfit with sand bags...

12 years ago I took Terunofuji to a gym to try CrossFit 

 

 

[Katooshu 3,325]

 Nicholas Pettas on the left?

Edited March 31, 2024 by Katooshu

[themistyseas 242]

7 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

21 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I do have to ask, are these long-time, committed fans of sumo you're talking to, or more casual ones? At least among foreign fans there's definitely a stark contrast between those of us who've been around for a while and seen other greats (and also seen other greats screw up), and many of the people who populate the Casual Fan HQs like Reddit and Chris Gould's comment sections, where Hakuho is unironically referred to as "our guy" and even more cringy appellations.

The fans I interact with are indeed longtime fans. Most them on the older side. Japanese, and have been watching sumo for decades. Their main complaint about Hakuho is, not surprisingly, his past behavior on the dohyo. That is to say, his lack of "hinkaku" as a Yokozuna. I'm sure the most recent development as Oyakata has only further solidified their view. 

I work in another entertainment sector (very frequently in the country), and almost everyone folks in the general population that I encounter has at most a vaguely passing knowledge of sumo. They know about scandals (maybe) when they happen, but most people are like "wow, you like sumo? Who's your favourite? Hakuho is the best! He's amazing." It feels to me there's also a stark (!) contrast between people in the country with regards to their feelings on Hakuho - but also with regard to scandal.

I do wonder whether with respect to the older, long time ultra fans, some in the Kyokai will understand that these folks have seen scandal come and go, frequently, over the years. These folks will have their opinions but aren't going to stop supporting the folks in the ecosystem who they support (ie, die hard super fans will always be die hard super fans, even if they view someone or someones to be unfavourable). But with that being said, the mood music of the general public may not be something that management wants to play with, it seems like they want to present the view that things are under control while preserving the presence of someone who still has the capacity to put butts in seats?

I know there are other folks here who want to read something into the PR statement that maybe isn't there, but I feel like there's little point as things stand now not to take Sadogatake at face value if he states that they want him to be rehabilitated as a leader and come back stronger. They have a lot to gain by that being truthful, even if certain stakeholders might have alternate motivations for how they arrive at that point.

[John Gunning 3,657]

7 hours ago, Katooshu said:

 Nicholas Pettas on the left?

Yes

[John Gunning 3,657]

@Katooshu On the topic of Miyagino Beya, Nicolas Pettas did an episode of his 'Samurai Spirit' series there with Hakuho years ago that's well worth checking out if you can find it online.

The foreign athlete world in Japan is a relatively small one, and there are many cross-sport relationships and friendships. 

Here's Nic and Terunofuji again with Konishiki and Aya at my wedding the same year as the previous pics.

 

 

[Akinomaki 40,755]

As of today, all members of the heya are members of Isegahama-beya. Hakuho agreed to an interview and declared he will go Isegahama-beya on the 3rd, not yet moving, for greeting the new boss. The heya name plate will be removed in the next days. http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/list/battle/sumo

The rikishi are no longer under house arrest, they have been seen outside, bringing cardboard boxes for the move to the heya, and lower div. were interviewed by the press yesterday - no date of moving is decided yet http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/297412

[Akinomaki 40,755]

On 01/04/2024 at 12:24, Akinomaki said:

Hakuho 

will go Isegahama-beya on the 3rd, not yet moving, for greeting the new boss. The heya name plate will be removed in the next days.

Miyagino with okamisan and Magaki today at Isegahama-beya

oo

o o oo ooo o o o o o oo o o o o

plate off today - Miyagi-no-more

o o oo oo

Edited April 4, 2024 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,755]

The move to Isegahama-beya will be (concluded) on the 7th, at the moment the baggage boxes are stored on the keiko ground, no training is possible any more.  Miyagino had a 90-100min. conversation with Isegahama. The new boss told him to go around the country and meet with the families of his deshi http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/297756

Keiko at Isegahama restarted on the 1st, at the moment the makuuchi and their tsukebito are at the jungyo, there is room at the heya for the new guys, in 2 days time they'll go to greet the new shisho o

[Akinomaki 40,755]

In a Nikkan premium article (behind the paywall), Terutsuyoshi explains the conditions at Isegahama-beya for the now 19 new guys (22 there now)

o o

An old move to the heya - from Magaki-beya: Wakaaoba, Shunba and Wakamisho April 11th 2013

the next day the first training of Wakamisho at the new heya, with Homarefuji

o

the bath at Isegahama

o

Isegahama-ichimon sekitori there at rengo-geiko - with Kyokutaisei, and Kaisho on the right, so it's most likely late in 2019

getting trained by Terunofuji

o

as tsuyuharai for Hakuho

o

Edited April 3, 2024 by Akinomaki

[rhyen 1,846]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

The move to Isegahama-beya will be (concluded) on the 7th, at the moment the baggage boxes are stored on the keiko ground, no training is possible any more.  Miyagino had a 90-100min. conversation with Isegahama. The new boss told him to go around the country and meet with the families of his deshi http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/297756

Keiko at Isegahama restarted on the 1st, at the moment the makuuchi and their tsukebito are at the jungyo, there is room at the heya for the new guys, in 2 days time they'll go to greet the new shisho o

First job that he gets kicks him out of the heya?