Kyushu 2024 discussion (results)

[Sumo Spiffy 550]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

I can only basically repeat Reonito's response.  I really don't think they take into consideration how well someone might do based on experience when forming the torikumi; that's been my general impression at least.  Do you have any examples where they clearly pushed someone up against higher level competition over someone with an identical record that was higher ranked but could be assumed to do worse than the lower-ranked rikishi?  There might be some I didn't really notice.

I haven't noticed anything like this with the schedule, either. They've started to adjust the banzuke slightly for name recognition, I think, but not the schedule.

[Asashosakari 19,073]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

(...) take into consideration how well someone might do based on experience when forming the torikumi (...)

From the vantage point of the low-rank challengers it's certainly difficult to come up with examples, simply because historically there were rarely multiple strong (by W-L) candidates, and even more rarely there's been somebody with Takerufuji's obvious pedigree in the mix.

The opposite approach to the topic is very common, though, namely taking into account the presumed strength of the high-rank contenders (if any exist). They went to particular lengths with that during Hakuho's prime where practically any maegashira challenger was considered irrelevant - the prime example being Toyonoshima's run in Kyushu 2010, during which they never bothered to give him a crack at Hakuho (and conversely, didn't give Hakuho the opportunity to dispose of the upstart). And Toyonoshima wasn't just anybody, but an established joi regular who was only down at M9 for non-competitive reasons. It was just, "nah, Hakuho ain't blowing that." Compare that to the last few years where basically no high-ranker is being trusted to stay beside / ahead of a streaking maegashira if they were simply given their standard schedule. (Not even Terunofuji - paired with same-score Asanoyama in Natsu 2023 and missed out on a sekiwake opponent because of it.)

Edited November 19, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Bunbukuchagama 702]

15 hours ago, Athenayama said:

Takarafuji : 'Ok my friend, push me out whenever you want/can"....

Yaocho time.

[Gurowake 4,031]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

They went to particular lengths with that during Hakuho's prime where practically any maegashira challenger was considered irrelevant

I think this was more of a seething hatred for Hakuho and making sure he'd have the toughest competition possible and make it more likely that that the maegashira would win without needing to beat the Boss.  Or just that he was so much better than anyone else in a way that no one is likely going to come close any time soon.

[Sakura 1,482]

5 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I can only basically repeat Reonito's response.  I really don't think they take into consideration how well someone might do based on experience when forming the torikumi; that's been my general impression at least.  Do you have any examples where they clearly pushed someone up against higher level competition over someone with an identical record that was higher ranked but could be assumed to do worse than the lower-ranked rikishi?  There might be some I didn't really notice.

Late to the party here, but I'm with you and @Reonito on this one. I was expecting a similar torikumi to what happened here. We might even end up with Onosato-Takerufuji and Abi-Takanosho on Day 12 (there are of course other ways to get Takanosho and Takerufuji into the mix)

[Katooshu 3,182]

How come Churanoumi and Oshoma faced the two most senior ozeki, but neither faced Onosato?

[Katooshu 3,182]

Tohakuryu with his 5th hair pull loss. He must be aiming for a record....

Edited November 20, 2024 by Katooshu

[Jakusotsu 5,892]

37 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

How come Churanoumi and Oshoma faced the two most senior ozeki, but neither faced Onosato?

Because Onosato is busy playing kingmaker.

[Jakusotsu 5,892]

So, Tohakuryu got a hair-pull reversal, but Asakoryu didn't even get a mono-ii?

[Kaninoyama 1,718]

Ura vs. Hiradoumi. Double torinaoshi with both flying out of the ring at the same time--both times.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Kaninoyama

[Jakusotsu 5,892]

For me it was Hiradoumi no kachi in the second attempt as he still had contact to the tawara while Ura went airborne, and Ura touched down first.

[Kaninoyama 1,718]

Kirishima finally remembered that he's pretty good at this sumo stuff. 

[Kamitsuumi 391]

Takayasu's belt work was superb today.

[dingo 1,222]

This basho Takerufuji has discovered pulling, but not really to his benefit. Hopefully it won't turn into a habit, for example Oho has worked hard to get rid of it. Today was a good proof of that he's better off sticking to pushing, even if he loses. Forward moving sumo and all that. 

Nishikigi vs Churanoumi was unexpectedly lively and entertaining. Churanoumi did well to delay his foot in the air to stay in the ring longer even though he was on the back foot. 

Onokatsu defeated Abi surprisingly easily. Was it because it was their first meeting and Abi didn't know what to expect or just their similar pushing styles, but Abi's sumo was quite tame and ordinary whereas this basho he's been pulling a variety of moves against more familiar rikishi. The weak tachiai and pulling right after didn't help either of course. 

Wakatakakage has completed a remarkably successful comeback from his injury. Even though he's probably out of yusho contention, his sumo has been strong and clever, and hopefully he can shake up the joi a bit more. 

As Ura and Hiradoumi dropped down together I thought for a moment I was watching synchronised diving. Except clay is probably less pleasant to land on than water. But those were some very artistic poses those two took in the air during all the bouts. Though I thought Hiradoumi's face at the beginning of the third bout said not again... and yet that third bout was exhilarating. Sumo can't get more entertaining than that. 

Excellent planning and execution by Takanosho! He had his tactics against Onosato thought through in detail and it worked perfectly, mixing enough variation into his offense and not allowing Onosato to settle into the bout. Onosato has to stay content to get a decent kachikoshi and aim for higher numbers next basho. 

For a moment I thought this was going to be another case of Hoshoryu attempting to beat his opponent athis own sumo and losing, but I was obviously wrong. This Hoshoryu is not gonna lose that easily. With the shape the leaders are in there're some mouthwatering bouts ahead in the last few days.

[Leoben 126]

Onosato seems particularly vulnerable to the nodowa, whether it's the quick hit and release that Abi has deployed effectively against him, or Takanosho using it today to get inside where he can't bulldoze his opponents with his power. Surely it's a matter of experience and his coach will teach him how to overcome it. 

[Hankegami 439]

I was particularly entertained by this day 11. Lots of stuff to talk about.

Let's start with the big prize - the Yusho run. Hoshoryu still looks the best this tournament. Daieisho was not pulling punches, yet the Nephew resisted until he found his much-coveted belt. As @dingo noticed before me, Hoshoryu was not trying to beat Daieisho with oshi - he knows better. Rather than that, his sumo has now reached an advanced stage of "how can I get that belt?". I like his mindset. Takanosho comes second. He really played Onosato today. Takanosho doesn't have Hoshoryu's technical finesse (the Nephew is on Ozeki for a reason), but he's as dangerous as any unleashed bulldog on a mission can be. Lastly, Kotozakura may be in the head runner pack but he does not convince me. He lost the tachi-ai and mostly used his weight to turn tables on Wakamotoharu. I mean, he's not faring bad by any means, but I feel like he's running on a gear lower than the other two. Anyway, tomorrow we get Kotozakura vs. Daieisho. Precedents are 9-8 for the former, but Daieisho won their last three encounters (see here). As I said, Daieisho is not pulling punches here. It's up to Kotozakura to show whether he's really interested in the Cup. For the news, we are also getting Shodai vs. Hoshoryu (5-10, 2-6 last eight, last two both for Hoshoryu) and Kirishima vs. Takanosho (3-14, believe it or not). In short, precedent suggest that the lead might be narrowed down to 11-1 Hoshoryu and Takanosho by tomorrow - unless Kotozakura shows up properly.

Last time I predicted that Onosato, Abi, and Takerufuji wouldn't have last in the Yusho race. It seems more so. Anyway, both Onosato and Takerufuji have the right to get a rest (they cannot run on full gas all the time). A KK is still a good thing.

Now, the most entertaining bouts. Takayasu vs. Sadanoumi was gold. Papa Bear is far from 100%, so I was surprised that he managed to finish his opponent. Entertaining fight. Enter-Sadly was Churanoumi vs. Nishikigi. Good 'ole Nishikigi dominated all the way, only to step out first. Man, it sucks. Anyway, the fight of the day was certainly Ura vs. Hiradoumi - two redos, and Ura manages to win the third try. I feel bad for Hiradoumi, a different interpretation of the dead body rule would have given him the win in the second fight. Ura started flying around well before Hiradoumi himself jumped out of the ring. I got that jumping out means dead body, but Pinky was rotting already by then. More than that, I find this decision inconsistent with yesterday's Oshoumi vs. Tsurugisho. Gisho got the win because Oshoumi jumped out, although he himself was falling down hard (and hard he fell well before Oshoumi did). In other words, he won because the first to be air bound loses. I was ok with that, but I am a bit annoyed that they didn't follow the same interpretation today. And I am an Ura fan (who is not anyway?).

Edited November 20, 2024 by Hankegami
mistaken Oshoumi for Onokatsu - I mean, they both begin with an O!!

[Koorifuu 924]

I'll be damned, Hatsuyama really might be making sekitori after all.

[Yubinhaad 11,604]

9 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Tohakuryu with his 5th hair pull loss. He must be aiming for a record....

In that case, he has succeeded.

[Asashosakari 19,073]

15 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I think this was more of a seething hatred for Hakuho (...)

You've got your eras seriously confused here, this was still in the "we love Hakuho because he's nothing like Asashoryu" days.
 

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

10 hours ago, Katooshu said:

How come Churanoumi and Oshoma faced the two most senior ozeki, but neither faced Onosato?

Because Onosato is busy playing kingmaker.

Also, both were down to 2-7 (and later worse) by the time they were in line to be selected as Onosato's next opponent. Not that rare that maegashira will be released from their sanyaku-facing duties when their records are so bad.
 

28 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

9 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Tohakuryu with his 5th hair pull loss. He must be aiming for a record....

In that case, he has succeeded.

Meanwhile, Kitanowaka has become the first rikishi ever to both win and lose by hansoku in the same tournament.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,031]

10 hours ago, Katooshu said:

How come Churanoumi and Oshoma faced the two most senior ozeki, but neither faced Onosato?

By the time they would be scheduled against him, they were MK.  They tend to skip such matches in favor of more relevant ones for the yusho race and sanyaku promotion picture.

[Gurowake 4,031]

Well the Day 11 results suggest that they're likely to break the Hoshoryu and Kotozakura matches against Kirishima to put the former two against Takanosho Days 13 and 14.  If they don't do this, and put Takanosho against let's say Daieisho and Wakamotoharu on those days, if he's still in contention Day 15 it's probably too late to put them against either Ozeki who almost certainly will face each other Day 15.  They could instead mess with the normal order of the round robin and put the Hoshoryu vs. Kotozakura match earlier, but that would be a pretty major change and given how things are going I have little doubt they want their match as the last honwari match of the basho.  For Takanosho's Day 15 match there would be a lot of options, as he hasn't faced either of the two joi maegashira with 8 wins nor the junior sanyaku with a KK trending score line.  The straightforward scheduling without any changes for the Yusho race would put him against Daieisho to end the tournament.

I'm somewhat surprised by them scheduling Abi vs. Wakamotoharu this early.  I would think they would have saved it for later (or even skip it) to get them more matches against the lower-ranked maegashira doing well to better assess which ones need to be brought up to sanyaku.  Instead they have Onokatsu vs. Roga?!  I guess they want to give Onokatsu a bit of a break after putting him against Abi and Takanosho?  He'll probably need to be thrown up into the sanyaku at least once now with his win over Abi.

[Koorifuu 924]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Meanwhile, Kitanowaka has become the first rikishi ever to both win and lose by hansoku in the same tournament.

The loss felt a bit harsh to me; it looked like his fingers got accidentally tangled in Tamashoho's mage as opposed to a deliberate pull, and I don't think it helped him either. Today was a bit like karmic compensation.

[dingo 1,222]

I might be wrong, but subjectively it feels like Daieisho is slightly entering a end of basho slump, whereas Kotozakura has stayed consistent. So in my mind tomorrow Kotozakura has a slight advantage. Now watch me get it totally wrong... 

[Oskanohana 233]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

7 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

16 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Tohakuryu with his 5th hair pull loss. He must be aiming for a record....

In that case, he has succeeded.

Meanwhile, Kitanowaka has become the first rikishi ever to both win and lose by hansoku in the same tournament.

For stupidity's sake. Query

Midorifuji and Chiyootori seem to have the most enticing hairs of them all. Can anybody remember any instance of a hansoku not being a hair pull?

[Reonito 1,387]

49 minutes ago, Oskanohana said:

Midorifuji and Chiyootori seem to have the most enticing hairs of them all. Can anybody remember any instance of a hansoku not being a hair pull?

I've seen things that clearly should have been (like famous Ama vs Goeido bout), but I can't think of them ever being called.