Kyushu 2024 discussion (results)

[Octofuji 350]

49 minutes ago, Oskanohana said:

For stupidity's sake. Query

Midorifuji and Chiyootori seem to have the most enticing hairs of them all. Can anybody remember any instance of a hansoku not being a hair pull?

Wasn't there a famous disrobing incident?

Presumably a foul rather than a "non-technique"

[robnplunder 975]

21 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

For me it was Hiradoumi no kachi in the second attempt as he still had contact to the tawara while Ura went airborne, and Ura touched down first.

I thought so too.  A photo finish equipment would have benefitted Hiradoumi.

[Kaninoyama 1,718]

3 hours ago, robnplunder said:

I thought so too.  A photo finish equipment would have benefitted Hiradoumi.

In slow motion it was closer than it looked live. Hiradoumi's foot was definitely still on the tawara while Ura was airborne, but then he himself leaped up and out of the dohyo to save himself. It was one of those judgment calls that ended up being a torinaoshi. 

[Bunbukuchagama 703]

12 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

In slow motion it was closer than it looked live. Hiradoumi's foot was definitely still on the tawara while Ura was airborne, but then he himself leaped up and out of the dohyo to save himself. It was one of those judgment calls that ended up being a torinaoshi. 

They could have a monoii, you know. 

[Koorifuu 924]

Watching Onosho this basho has been hard. He really would be better served looking after his knees for a while.

[Kaito 278]

Regarding Ura/Hiradoumi:

I don't see how they'd ever give the 2nd match to Hiradoumi. He would have needed to maintain his own presence in the dohyo until Ura landed to get a clean win. When both men go airborne, regardless of who's dead first or who lands first, a rematch is standard. If anything, the one pushing can be credited with the win when diving forward and dislodging the opponent before he lands. Ura was just too out of control for that to feel right.

[RabidJohn 1,733]

Quite the most fired up I've seen Kirishima all basho. Way too late.

I was a little puzzled as to why Takerufuji was brought up to face Onosato, but I did appreciate a musubi-no-ichiban featuring the winners of 50% of makuuchi yusho in 2024.

[Sue 494]

Dear Mita:

No, really. Stop trying to make KK happen. It's. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Sympathetic but disappointed, Sue

[Hankegami 439]

Ok, I admit it: a Kotozakura yusho is seriously in the cards. He convincingly defeated Daieisho after three defeats in a row in their previous encounters, and is up there with Hoshoryu. I am still convinced that Hoshoryu is in a better shape overall, but he has no cushion for errors. Kotozakura has four cushions only on his chest, one would say () - he's more solid, albeit less thunderous and flashy. Takanosho can still capitalize any upset, but he must make it happen himself. Tomorrow, in fact, we get Kotozakura vs. Takanosho (6-2), easy on paper for the Ozeki (also 5-0 in their last five matches). Going on, Hoshoryu vs. Onosato (3-1+1) start off the Ozeki round robin for the last three days. Onosato won their last face-to-face, but it was also the only win he got on the dohyo (the other being a fusen). Before that, Hoshoryu used to capitalize Onosato moving forward, handing him a shitatenage by the edge of the dohyo. But that was the old Hoshoryu - not sure what his newer version will do tomorrow.

And lucky boy Kirishima might just eke out a KK thanks to the front-runners taking on each other. He was supposed to serve as the "extra Ozeki" sparring partner from Day 13 onwards, but Takanosho will get the honor tomorrow. Not like he's getting any easy foe, but for tomorrow's Kirishima vs. Gonoyama (2-2) he has the chance to get just one win away from KK. Whether Kirby gets to 7, everyone watch out for a henka in one of the last two days.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Hankegami

[dingo 1,222]

Tamawashi has almost reached his kachikoshi at 40! He got a fairly easy win today as Shishi didn't know how to adjust to Tamawashi's sumo. Shishi is faring exactly like I thought he would when he got promoted from juryo. He's not quite ready yet to have maegashira level opposition and his score reflects that, though his sumo hasn't been awful. Maybe he can learn from this experience and get a better foothold in makuuchi next time. 

Strange things happened as Oshoma basically bent too low to push down Ura and fell over by himself. I think even Ura didn't expect that, but he needs the win so he'll gladly take it. 

Seemed like Oho vs Churanoumi should've been a torinaoshi at least but perhaps the gyoji considered that Oho was attacking and gave him the win. After yesterday's double torinaoshi the shimpan couldn't be bothered to climb up the dohyo either so Oho got a lucky result. 

Hiradoumi missed two chances to pull down Atamifuji when he seemed to lose balance, electing to push him instead. That cost him dearly as Atamifuji managed to escape Hiradoumi's increasingly desperate pushes and sent him out. 1-11 doesn't really reflect Hiradoumi's effort this basho but things are just not going his way. 

Takanosho tried his best but was on the back foot for most of the bout as he tried to escape Kirishima's offense until he eventually couldn't. Kirishima showed his ex-ozeki quality, not losing sight and maintaining pressure until Takanosho had nowhere to go. It's not quite the end of the fairytale for Takanosho yet, but he doesn't have any room for losses of he wants to stay in yusho contention. 

Hoshoryu continues unfazed as Shodai offered little challenge. It's been going on for a while but the gap between Shodai and the joi nowadays is massive. As for Hoshoryu, the really difficult and decisive bouts are still ahead of him. 

As I suspected, Daieisho was not at his sharpest today and allowed Kotozakura to take the initiative. From then on it was a one way road. Kotozakura has not been spectacular like Hoshoryu, but very solid after the disappointment of last basho. 

Finally, Onosato got his revenge for the loss against Takerufuji last time, bulldozing him out. Takerufuji doesn't quite have max power this basho and this proved to be the difference. But even at 70 or 80 percent he's too strong for most of makuuchi. 

[Jakusotsu 5,892]

1 hour ago, dingo said:

Tamawashi has almost reached his kachikoshi at 40!

Hard thing to query: who was the oldest rikishi to get KK in Makuuchi?

[Leoben 126]

Even though Hoshoryu has looked stronger, I think Kotozakura is the favorite now. Hoshoryu won their last two matches, but the head to head over the last year is 4-2 in Kotozakura's favor and I feel like the matchup is just generally unfavorable to him. I think he also has better tools to handle Onosato.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Leoben

[Tochinofuji 378]

I thought Kirishima seemed irritated that Takanosho slapped him around quite so much, but have to say - if you're not a yokozuna and open with a harite/harizashi, I'm not sure how irritated you should be getting that the other guy slaps back. 

[Oskanohana 233]

16 hours ago, Reonito said:

I've seen things that clearly should have been (like famous Ama vs Goeido bout), but I can't think of them ever being called.

We're not talking about the okuritsuriotoshi, are we? If not, which one exactly, what happened?

 

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Hard thing to query: who was the oldest rikishi to get KK in Makuuchi?

Of the top of my head, I'd say Aminishiki, who was given a kanto-sho for a measly 8-7 kachi-koshi as a low ranked maegashira at (...looking it up...)39 years and 2 months. One would assume that the sansho was given because he beat a record. Funnily enough, Tamawashi's KK on Hatsu '24 already beats Aminishiki's record yet he wasn't awarded any special prize nor any special attention. Put the blame on Mame, boys.

Edit:

I'm looking up some suspects manually, The Chauffeur takes it for the moment at 40y 8m, still no sansho. He might have something in common with Tamawashi, but it really escapes me

Whiskypedia says about him that "In September 2014 he became the first 40-year-old to be ranked in makuuchi since the six tournament a year system began in 1958", so the answer might even be correct.

 

Onto other things, just to jinx it, we might be looking at a senshuraku showdown for the yusho between the top 2 ranked active rikishi on the banzuke. Last time that happened was some time ago. Maybe the last yusho of he-who-shall-not-be-named, the really bad bad bad oyakata?

Edited November 21, 2024 by Oskanohana

[dingo 1,222]

45 minutes ago, Oskanohana said:

 The Chauffeur takes it for the moment at 40y 8m, still no sansho. He might have something in common with Tamawashi, but it really escapes me 

I hope you don't mean that Tamawashi will retire one basho after his 40yo makuuchi kachikoshi... he needs to break that record! 

[Gurowake 4,031]

1 hour ago, Oskanohana said:

We're not talking about the okuritsuriotoshi, are we? If not, which one exactly, what happened?

In the video of this bout, you can even hear the commentator state that Ama should not have been gripping the vertical strip of the mawashi when he was holding Goeido from behind.  It was a pretty blatant disregard for the normal rules, but one that just doesn't come up any other time; it only came up this time because Ama really couldn't see exactly what he was doing, though going from feel he should have known that he was gripping the vertical strip.  Did it have any effect on the outcome of the bout?  Unlikely, but the kimarite might have been different and less interesting, as I don't know if he'd have been able to get the lift he did without that grip.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Gurowake

[Hankegami 439]

2 hours ago, Leoben said:

Even though Hoshoryu has looked stronger, I think Kotozakura is the favorite now. Hoshoryu won their last two matches, but the head to head over the last year is 4-2 in Kotozakura's favor and I feel like the matchup is just generally unfavorable to him. I think he also has better tools to handle Onosato.

I use to put my money on the guy in the best shape during the tournament normally - but yes, Kotozakura has a relatively easier schedule by the record. IMHO Onosato is lacking a lot of inventive this tournament - he charges forward a lot without a Plan B. I think he's tired, that's it. Both the Ozeki have a winning record against him (Hoshoryu has a relatively more domineering record of 3-1+1, while Kotozakura has a ping-pong style 3-2 record), and Hoshoryu in particular used to capitalize on Onosato moving mindlessly forward. Kotozakura has more the same style, but also more experience and tools. Chances are that them both can win their bouts against him this time around. The real issue, for me, is Hoshoryu's Day 14 opponent. He can either get Kirishima (9-9 H2H with a 1-3 recent record) or Takanosho (8-3). I just hope they're are going to be fair and skip Kirishima entirely. They spared him Kotozakura because he's yet to get his KK, and this despite the latter's terrible record against the Mongolian (4-13, including losses in the tournaments where Kirishima got MKs and was demoted from Ozeki). Also, Onosato should be never underestimated. There are non-zero chances that any of them could drop at least one bout before Day 15.

And this comes down to the musubi no ichiban, ideally with both wrestlers entering with a 13-1 record (screw Onosato and Takanosho, we want the thrill here). The H2H between Hoshoryu and Kotozakura is a literal swing (here). Kotozakura (er, Kotokamatani / Kotonowaka) started 3-0 on Hoshoryu (2019.03- 2020.11). Then Hoshoryu came to own Kotonowaka regularly with a solid 10-0 (2021.01-2023.05). After that, Koto-boy went on a winning 5-0 streak (2023.07-2024.05). The last chapter now has Hoshoryu getting back to Kotozakura 2-0 (2024.07-09). The real question here is whether the pendulum is ready to swing back to Kotozakura or not.

Their last two encounters cannot be categorized as part of a new phase of their rivalry, though. During Hoshoryu's 10-0 streak, Kotonowaka just had no answers against Hoshoryu's judo skills. He thereafter went on a 5-0 winning streak because he learned how to use his weight against his lighter rival. Hoshoryu's first win after that was the result of great effort. He literally out-muscled Kotozakura on the belt, and injured himself in the process (hence his 9-2-4 result). Things were wildly different last tournament. Hoshoryu was 7-7 and chasing KK, while Kotozakura already got his. The match was an one-sided chase around the dohyo ended with a yorikiri push from Hoshoryu, but one wonders how much effort Kotozakura put on that fight.

In short, it's all down to their respective shapes. Hoshoryu is out-muscling people a lot this time around, so he might well offer a repeat of his heroic Nagoya win (hopefully without injuries this time). However, if the Nephew ends up losing one bout more (let's say entering on the last day with a 12-2 vs. Kotozakura's 13-1) I'm not sure whether he can offer a back-to-back performance. So... He should better win out.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Hankegami

[Reonito 1,387]

2 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

We're not talking about the okuritsuriotoshi, are we? If not, which one exactly, what happened?

yeah, that one, with Murray commenting "that right hand is a bit of a worry, you're not supposed to grab there"

[Reonito 1,387]

5 hours ago, dingo said:

Seemed like Oho vs Churanoumi should've been a torinaoshi at least but perhaps the gyoji considered that Oho was attacking and gave him the win. After yesterday's double torinaoshi the shimpan couldn't be bothered to climb up the dohyo either so Oho got a lucky result. 

@Kintamayama's video clearly showed Oho's hand touching down outside the tawara while Churanoumi was still standing inside the dohyo. Pretty definitive blown call.

[Octofuji 350]

3 hours ago, Tochinofuji said:

I thought Kirishima seemed irritated that Takanosho slapped him around quite so much, but have to say - if you're not a yokozuna and open with a harite/harizashi, I'm not sure how irritated you should be getting that the other guy slaps back. 

Hakuho used to exert a psychological dominance through opponents being wary of the kachiage, maybe Kirishima thought it was time to try something like that. Certainly his usual sumo has been pretty useless against Takanosho up till now.

[Kamitsuumi 391]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

@Kintamayama's video clearly showed Oho's hand touching down outside the tawara while Churanoumi was still standing inside the dohyo. Pretty definitive blown call.

Obviously a tribute kabaite to the recently passed Kitanofuji

[Oskanohana 233]

 

6 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

5 hours ago, dingo said:

I hope you don't mean that Tamawashi will retire one basho after his 40yo makuuchi kachikoshi... he needs to break that record! 

I'm looking up some suspects manually, The Chauffeur takes it for the moment at 40y 8m, still no sansho. He might have something in common with Tamawashi, but it really escapes me

I was merely referring to the place of birth of both rikishi and how it is not part of the archipelago of the emperor, thus making them less worthy of praise and prizes and rewards. Those pesky foreigners.

 

4 hours ago, Gurowake said:

In the video of this bout, you can even hear the commentator state that Ama should not have been gripping the vertical strip of the mawashi when he was holding Goeido from behind.  It was a pretty blatant disregard for the normal rules, but one that just doesn't come up any other time; it only came up this time because Ama really couldn't see exactly what he was doing, though going from feel he should have known that he was gripping the vertical strip.  Did it have any effect on the outcome of the bout?  Unlikely, but the kimarite might have been different and less interesting, as I don't know if he'd have been able to get the lift he did without that grip.

 

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

yeah, that one, with Murray commenting "that right hand is a bit of a worry, you're not supposed to grab there"

Oh, I only really remember Ama (a measly komusubi back then and you got laughed at if you thought he could even win a single yusho in his career) welcoming the new blood to the division the way it should be done. Now they pave the way for them to yusho. Actually, the moment Ama wins the back, the bout is done, he could have gone for the pedestrian okuridashi but I'd give him some leeway for showmanship.

[bettega 431]

22 hours ago, Reonito said:

I've seen things that clearly should have been (like famous Ama vs Goeido bout), but I can't think of them ever being called.

That was beautiful, in fact 

Okuritsuriotoshi

 

[Katooshu 3,182]

6 hours ago, Hankegami said:

I use to put my money on the guy in the best shape during the tournament normally - but yes, Kotozakura has a relatively easier schedule by the record. IMHO Onosato is lacking a lot of inventive this tournament - he charges forward a lot without a Plan B. I think he's tired, that's it. Both the Ozeki have a winning record against him (Hoshoryu has a relatively more domineering record of 3-1+1, while Kotozakura has a ping-pong style 3-2 record), and Hoshoryu in particular used to capitalize on Onosato moving mindlessly forward. Kotozakura has more the same style, but also more experience and tools. Chances are that them both can win their bouts against him this time around. The real issue, for me, is Hoshoryu's Day 14 opponent. He can either get Kirishima (9-9 H2H with a 1-3 recent record) or Takanosho (8-3). I just hope they're are going to be fair and skip Kirishima entirely. They spared him Kotozakura because he's yet to get his KK, and this despite the latter's terrible record against the Mongolian (4-13, including losses in the tournaments where Kirishima got MKs and was demoted from Ozeki). Also, Onosato should be never underestimated. There are non-zero chances that any of them could drop at least one bout before Day 15.

Onosato kyujo'd from the jungyo with illness, so perhaps he is fatigued. Also some ozeki promotion celebration hangover?

But aside from that, I think he's had some missteps that are more a matter of experience. In college no one nodowa'd him like Takanosho did or survived being blasted to the edge of the dohyo like Daieisho somehow managed. In these cases he seemed to freeze up a bit when met with that resistence, whereas the other two ozeki are quite dynamic and can adjust to many different situations.

He has steadily improved since turning pro - from 4-3 in makushita to runner-up in juryo to multi cup winner in makuuchi - and I think if he can become just a bit more adaptable he'll make a serious challenge for the top rank. The raw physical strength is already outstanding and even with his flaws he leads the ozeki for yusho.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Katooshu

[Leoben 126]

@Hankegami You captured my thoughts almost word for word.

Essentially, I think Hoshoryu's last two wins against Kotozakura were fluke-y because of the context you described. He seems to be physically stronger this tournament, I'd speculate because it's the first in quite a while where he isn't injured and he's finally come into his 150kg frame, but even with the added weight and better physical condition he didn't have the power to go up against Atamifuji, and his two fellow Ozeki are also heavyweights with even better skills than the Isegahama man. He struggles against really heavy guys with decent belt fundamentals because they are able to keep him in front of them, block him from moving laterally and pivoting into his throws, and he just gets pushed backwards and loses. His recent losses to Atamifuji, Oho, and Onosato fit that pattern, as do a bunch of his losses in that 0-5 streak against Kotozakura.