question about football

[Gernobono 462]

maybe some members here are into football (NFL)

can you explain to me, why 2nd&10 is better than 3rd&5

usually a 5 yard penalty in these situations is taken 

in my opinion a loss of down is much more attractive

[Athenayama 996]

It depends on which side you're on, what is the position on the field and other parameters. You should give us more details about the game and when it happened.

[Churaumi 728]

2nd down means you've got 3 plays to go 10 yards, 3rd down only gives 2. In the current pass-heavy offense era, 3rd down is usually going to be a passing play. Not completing the pass brings up 4th and 5 which will usually be a punt or a field goal depending on field position. So, 2nd and 10 gives offenses more options.

However, defenses will usually choose to enforce penalties that cause loss of downs for exactly the same reasons. They are reducing options for defenses. They will often times decline penalties that would result in a yardage penalty but not a loss of down, especially late in the game. That's as much about clock management, especially if the defending team is behind a couple points and needs the ball back ASAP.

Edited September 16 by Churaumi
Football plays are like chess matches where all the pieces move at once

[Gurowake 4,008]

I'm having trouble parsing exactly what you're asking.  Are you talking better for the offense or better for the defense?  Is the penalty proposed against the offense or the defense?  What was the result of the play irrespective of the penalty? 

[Gernobono 462]

36 minutes ago, Athenayama said:

It depends on which side you're on, what is the position on the field and other parameters. You should give us more details about the game and when it happened.

it was saints@cowboys at 35-13

• 2nd & 5 at DAL 43

  (1:38 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Prescott pass incomplete short left. PENALTY on DAL-C.Beebe, Ineligible Downfield Pass, 5 yards, enforced at DAL 43 - No Play.

• 2nd & 10 at DAL 38

  (1:34 - 2nd) (Shotgun) D.Prescott pass incomplete deep right to J.Tolbert (T.Mathieu).

i still don't remember ever the penalty being declined for a loss of down in any of the decisions

result was a fieldgoal

Edited September 16 by Gernobono

[Athenayama 996]

13 minutes ago, Gernobono said:

it was saints@cowboys at 35-13

• 2nd & 5 at DAL 43

  (1:38 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Prescott pass incomplete short left. PENALTY on DAL-C.Beebe, Ineligible Downfield Pass, 5 yards, enforced at DAL 43 - No Play.

• 2nd & 10 at DAL 38

  (1:34 - 2nd) (Shotgun) D.Prescott pass incomplete deep right to J.Tolbert (T.Mathieu).

i still don't remember ever the penalty being declined for a loss of down in any of the decisions

result was a fieldgoal

Actually ball was intercepted half a minute later by New Orleans. The penalty as written was for inelligible downfield pass and there was no play. In that case I think there is no question if New Orleans could decline the penalty or not. Maybe the Americans friends could confirm this?

[Gernobono 462]

i penalty should read "inelligible player downfield",,,

think it was #55 of dal

maybe i remember wrong, because i got a beer for every saints DT  (happy to have a drinks fridge yesterday)

[Athenayama 996]

If I'm not mistaken when there is no play the penalty is automatic. There is no question about  a choice to decline it or not for the the team who beneficiate from it. Again I let our American friends confirm this or not.

[Yamanashi 3,771]

8 hours ago, Gernobono said:

i penalty should read "inelligible player downfield",,,

think it was #55 of dal

maybe i remember wrong, because i got a beer for every saints DT  (happy to have a drinks fridge yesterday)

Yes, Ineligible Receiver Downfield.  Generally speaking, lineman can't go downfield and catch a pass (otherwise it would be impossible to defend 10 potential receivers).  They also can't just go downfield to start blocking so a guy coming behind them can catch a pass.  There are lots of technicalities involved, but that's it in summary.  The Center, Cooper Beebe, got himself more than a yard downfield (the allowed "fudge-factor" zone) when the pass was thrown.  I think the defense can decline that penalty.

[Gurowake 4,008]

This certainly is a situation though where it's not obvious what the best choice is for the defense, but in general I think teams are willing to accept the yardage and give the offense more downs if it wouldn't be fourth down with the result of the play, generally because it's seen as advantageous to make the offense just need more yards to score.    In this specific situation though, there was little time left in the half, so the distance from the goal was even more important than usual compared to the number of plays that they had to get a first down.  The reason the first down issue is less relevant is that it's less likely that the ball changing hands via downs or a punt is going to result in a scoring opportunity for the new offense due to the lack of time remaining to play the half.  Where the ball is at the end of the half and who has possession is entirely irrelevant - the ball will be kicked off to start the second half by whoever received the first half kickoff.

[Gurowake 4,008]

I'll also note that 35-13 is an insane first half score (it actually was 35-16 due to the field goal to end the half).  That reads more like a final score.

[Churaumi 728]

I have grown up watching football and played it in school, and been a fan for decades, but this conversation makes me appreciate the simplicity of sumo.

Edited September 17 by Churaumi
We'll not mention shinitai though

[Kishinoyama 582]

19 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I'll also note that 35-13 is an insane first half score (it actually was 35-16 due to the field goal to end the half).  That reads more like a final score.

I know it’s not the same, professional vs college, but my favorite college team was leading 37 to 0 after the first quarter and 65 to 0 at halftime. The final score was 71 to 0. Third and fourth string players were playing in the 4th quarter. 

[John Gunning 3,544]

Two shots to get ten yards or one to get five. 

With the average yards per play in the NFL being about 5.5 the second option appears better but in my experience most defensive coaches also see the first option as having two shots to force a fumble or interception, as well as making the offense show more of their plays.

On the topic of odd scores...I've seen plenty of triple digit wins but Obic Seagulls beating Bulls 90-3 without throwing a single forward pass in a game with 12-minute quarters is probably the most incredible one I've witnessed.

[Yamanashi 3,771]

1 hour ago, John Gunning said:

On the topic of odd scores...I've seen plenty of triple digit wins but Obic Seagulls beating Bulls 90-3 without throwing a single forward pass in a game with 12-minute quarters is probably the most incredible one I've witnessed.

Wow, that was weird.  The Bulls looked like a high school team (I notice they never had a winning season).  I think I saw one pass, though it was a swing pass and might have been counted as a lateral.

[John Gunning 3,544]

15 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

 I think I saw one pass, though it was a swing pass and might have been counted as a lateral.

We had an Instagram poll about that with screenshots etc. Result was 50% yes 50% no. Officially it was a lateral.

The Bulls are a borderline tier 2 / tier 3 team while Obic are the most successful franchise in Japanese football history and play at roughly a D1 FCS level