Hatsu 2025 discussion (results)

[Fashiritētā 181]

I agree Benihana, neither were ready , should be fun with no Yokozuna for the next 3 or 4 Bashos

[Katooshu 3,221]

I enjoy the race to yokozuna. I've seen a lot of people on social media fretting about the vacancy, wondering if there is desperation to promote a new yokozuna, hoping someone gets roped this month. But it's the journey there that is the most fun to watch for me - let it run on some more. I'd also much rather have someone earn it convincingly than just barely make it over the line.

Despite the ozeki not being on fire this basho (well Hoshoryu was until recently), I think even just a bit of improvement from any three of them could be enough to get them over the line. As it stands, I still feel optimistic that Hoshoryu and Onosato can get there eventually - in Onosato's case, he'd have to have maxed out in his first year of makuuchi, at just 23-24, not to.

Kotozakura I am a bit less convinced on, as I think he's probably closer to his peak and lacks a real 'wow' attribute like the other two have. But to be fair this is his first real disaster basho after nearly 20 straight KK and consistently good showings. He should get more chances.

I don't think we should be that negative yet.

Edited January 20 by Katooshu

[dingo 1,263]

I have a feeling that even if Hoshoryu were to get a 12-3 yusho here, the Kyokai would ask for another good result next basho just to be sure. 

[Katooshu 3,221]

I'd hope they would.

[Katooshu 3,221]

Other observations from this basho:

--I'm generally not a fan of henka, but I appreciate a rikishi who really goes for it when they pull one, and right now that's Mita. No half-hearted sidestep that draws debate about whether it counts as a henka or not; with Mita it's either a glorious jump or lightning quick, full dash to the side. Absolutely no doubt that it was an utterly massive, premeditated henka. I can enjoy athletic displays like that and it somehow feels more honest than the  'I didn't mean it' variety 

-I have never seen another basho with so many shimpan being toppled by falling rikishi. On one day there were two shimp who were both run over twice within about twenty minutes of each other. One of them was former Kotonishiki, who at least found it in himself to laugh at his plight.

-The last few days have been very bloody in the lower divisions. Several noses popped, foreheads gashed and scraped, even chests bleeding.

-Kosei's win over Daitengu was perhaps the most 'matrix' like sumo I've seen. I think it's a disservice to his effort that it was listed as an isamiashi.

-Aonishiki is so satisfying to watch. His grappling skills are excellent, and he's so good at creating openings and quickly punishing mistakes. He's a bit undersized at the moment, but I'm interested to see how far he can go vs bigger, stronger makuuchi rikishi.

-Noda and Wakaikari are looking like strong prospects in sandanme. Noda is from Fujishima beya, which is suddenly red hot for the future with him and the two Ms60TD who are starting next basho.

-Good to see Raiho, Gonoumi, and Yago all back - regardless of how far they climb again, nice to see rikishi in better health and winning.

Edited January 20 by Katooshu

[Oskanohana 261]

16 hours ago, Kaikitsune Makoto said:

Onosato in immensely strong. One of the strongest I have ever seen physically. He can do both yotsu and oshi. Still some dumb losses and erratic crap but physically so formidable that if these "beginner" mistakes go away it is very difficult to beat him. When he gets in a strong tachi-ai nobody can really match that.

I don't see this yotsu ability you speak of. I haven't seen him grab the mawashi and control his opponent and the pace of the bout. If forced to grab the mawashi, he just does and drives forward all the same, as he did to Wakatatakage the other day, just bullying him. It takes immense strength to "just walk forward" as he does, but I don't see any ability at all to deny the opponent, pull an offensive uwatenage, maybe shift gears with a dashi-nage, much less go full gappuri-yotsu and really measure his strength against a pure yotsu specialist. He is not at all able to control the opponent (and himself) and win steadily and safely. At the moment, he's just a bulldozer that nobody can stop consistently and can only be beaten by pulldowns or his own overeagerness, but that's partly the fault of the sorry bunch we have at the top of the sport now.

 

26 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

I have never seen someone care so little whether he wins or not as Mitoryu did in his match vs Shishi.

What a monster that dude would be if he tried.

Yup, that's his whole schtick, he's made a juryo janitor career out of it. Daishoho was another one of those, but now he's just embarrassing. Today's loss against Daiseizan's tectonic sidestep was on a whole other level of apathy even for him. He doesn't even care even when he's effectively losing his salary.

 

Oh, and Tochimusashi today copied his pal Hakuyozan's move and needlessly dragged Kotokenryu to the stands with him. Those two are something else.

[WAKATAKE 2,656]

Nokozuna it is then

[dingo 1,263]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

-Aonishiki is so satisfying to watch. His grappling skills are excellent, and he's so good at creating openings and quickly punishing mistakes. He's a bit undersized at the moment, but I'm interested to see how far he can go vs bigger, stronger makuuchi rikishi.

I hope that in an effort to put on more size he doesn't turn into a balloon like Gagamaru. 

[Katooshu 3,221]

Well, there is a big space between putting on more size and ending up 200kg

[Koorifuu 994]

2 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

Oh, and Tochimusashi today copied his pal Hakuyozan's move and needlessly dragged Kotokenryu to the stands with him. Those two are something else.

I like deriding those two as much as the next keyboard warrior, but FOR ONCE, I don't think there was any malice behind Tochimusashi's pull. It looked more like a desperate last ditch kubinage attempt to me.

[Bunbukuchagama 719]

4 hours ago, Fashiritētā said:

I agree Benihana, neither were ready , should be fun with no Yokozuna for the next 3 or 4 Bashos

We are already used to it; Terunofuji prepared us well. 

[just_some_guy 278]

2 hours ago, dingo said:

I hope that in an effort to put on more size he doesn't turn into a balloon like Gagamaru. 

So I'm not the only one who sees facial resemblance between Aonishiki and Gagamaru.

[Seregost 132]

Very entertaining bout in Juryo with Wakaikari defeating Kiryuko. The former tried a slapdown at the beginning, some oshi and a tsukiotoshi, later on a kekaeshi, and when the bout developed in a yotsu contest, emerged victorious with a wonderful kakenage. And he's tied in the lead with the ukranians

[Asashimaru 17]

10 hours ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

[...]
As for the next yokozuna - I'm actually hoping for a regular, straightforward 2 yusho back-to-back run. IMHO it doesn't matter that much that there isn't a yokozuna right now and the powers that be shouldn't be rushing to promote Hōshōryū, who still might not be ready or consistent enough yet. His run is pretty much over anyway after today's loss, right?

When Hakuho was asked what yokozuna means to him, he once said something like “to always be victorious”. And it is exactly this expected outstanding dominance in the makuuchi division and the undescribed rule of 2 consecutive triumphs in the rank of ozeki that is, in my opinion, the distinguishing feature of a worthy yokozuna contender.

That's why I always considered Kakuryu to be a proper ozeki rather than a deserving representative of the elite grandmasters. Harumafuji wasn't the most dominant either, but in contrast he had the mental and physical strength to make two zensho-yusho follow each other and defeat the most victorious of all time in the process.

With the current sanyaku rikishi and above, we still all too often see them buckle under the sheer overwhelming pressure to fulfill many hopes and expectations,  which many are not yet up to.

Edited January 21 by Asashimaru

[Morty 1,495]

6 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I enjoy the race to yokozuna. I've seen a lot of people on social media fretting about the vacancy, wondering if there is desperation to promote a new yokozuna, hoping someone gets roped this month. But it's the journey there that is the most fun to watch for me - let it run on some more. I'd also much rather have someone earn it convincingly than just barely make it over the line.

 

Exactly this. Achieving the status of Yokozuna is one of, if not the most, difficult thing to achieve in world sport. There's a reason why there have only been 73 of them in just under 400 years. The one time they relaxed the standards they ended up with a Yokozuna with an imaginary asterisk next to his name, in that he never won a yusho. The banzuke has to have an Ozeki on it, not a Yokozuna, and there is no reason they need to quickly overpromote someone. That status should be reserved for only the absolute champions, the ones who prove they deserve it, by being so dominant they almost never lose, and when they do it is such a surprise that the cushions fly. Eventually someone will come along who fits that criteria, and will deservedly get the rope. I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later, but I hope they have to achieve it, rather than being given a soft ride to it.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

55 minutes ago, Morty said:

There's a reason why there have only been 73 of them in just under 400 years.

The real reason is that it wasn't considered particularly important to crown new yokozuna for the first 250+ of those 400 years. The sport's been averaging a yokozuna every 2 and a half years or so under modern conditions, which is hardly that far off from other professional sports. The men's and women's tennis rankings have been running for around 50 years (since 1973 and 1975 respectively), and each has seen 29 different players in the #1 spot. Men's golf has had 25 different #1's in just about 40 years (since 1986). Snooker has had 12 in 50 years, although for a large part of that they only updated the ranking officially once a year. (There have been 6 in the 15 years since they switched to frequent updates.)

The mechanics of how an athlete will be crowned "the best" may be very different from sport to sport, but the overall competitive environments at the top of the heap don't actually differ that much between most individual pro sports that can be considered sufficiently mature.
 

Quote

The one time they relaxed the standards they ended up with a Yokozuna with an imaginary asterisk next to his name, in that he never won a yusho.

There were quite a few other yokozuna who got in with worse (or at least not better) results than Futahaguro did, including some who either had won no yusho at all before promotion or none as ozeki. Life went on just fine. The "problem with Futahaguro" wasn't particularly the standard that his promotion was decided by, it was that his career did not get to unfold as expected. It's highly unlikely that he would have ended his career yusholess if he'd been able to see it through rather than getting thrown out at age 24. Even if he had won just one yusho as yokozuna before his involuntary exit he'd now just be known as "that asshole", not "that infamous asshole". And consequently what they practically did about the promotion standards afterwards was nothing but a hysterical overreaction, one that they've thankfully slowly walked back from. In any case, the big sticking point during the discussions about Futahaguro's impending promotion wasn't even his competitive merit, it was already his alleged behavioural deficiencies.

Edited January 21 by Asashosakari

[Reonito 1,456]

Most Ozeki don't live up to "should regularly get double-digit wins and contend for the yusho," or they'd be Yokozuna. Most Yokozuna don't live up to "should dominate most basho," or they'd be Dai-Yokozuna. (Ozeki) Kisenosato and Hakuho are the outliers, not (say) Goeido and Kakuryu.

[Asashosakari 19,319]

Wow, some aggressive match-making for Day 11. Every non-joi rikishi that's 6-3 or better has been shuffled up.

M12w Onokatsu (6-3) - M3w Oho (7-2)
M2e Tobizaru (5-4) - M15e Hakuoho (6-3)
M10e Tamawashi (6-3) - M1w Kirishima (6-3)
K1e Abi (5-4) - M6w Ichiyamamoto (6-3)
M11w Takerufuji (7-2) - S1w Daieisho (6-3)
S1e Wakamotoharu (2-7) - M6e Takayasu (6-3)
M14w Kinbozan (9-0) - O2w Onosato (6-3)
M5w Chiyoshoma (8-1) - O1w Hoshoryu (6-3)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Jinx doesn´t exist. It is as void of all sense and logic as wishing a stranger nice day. Nobody gives a Kotoshoho´s big toe about some stranger´s rest of the day. I am sure there are very limited amount of cashiers who honestly wish some customers to have a nice day/evening/Christmas/mid summer fest/marriage etc.

It is enough to just greet or nod. Don´t wish anything.

Wakaikari made an impression last basho with his mobility, tactical and technical skills but also seemed to be physically often overwhelmed, Amazingly while he is continuing his excellence in sumo skill but this time is much better resisting brute force too. Rather surprising change actually. He can hold his own much better than last basho in this sense, Rare to see such difference between consecutive bashos. He is an asset. 

[Yamanashi 3,840]

11 hours ago, just_some_guy said:

I have never seen someone care so little whether he wins or not as Mitoryu did in his match vs Shishi.

What a monster that dude would be if he tried.

That stuck out to me, too.  His tachiai looked like he was getting up to shut off the TV.  Then I swear he almost walked himself out once and Shishi didn't push him, so he had to do it again.

[Yamanashi 3,840]

6 hours ago, Asashimaru said:

When Hakuho was asked what yokozuna means to him, he once said something like “to always be victorious”.

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women -- and give them a little extra shove."

[WAKATAKE 2,656]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Wow, some aggressive match-making for Day 11. Every non-joi rikishi that's 6-3 or better has been shuffled up.

M12w Onokatsu (6-3) - M3w Oho (7-2)
M2e Tobizaru (5-4) - M15e Hakuoho (6-3)
M10e Tamawashi (6-3) - M1w Kirishima (6-3)
K1e Abi (5-4) - M6w Ichiyamamoto (6-3)
M11w Takerufuji (7-2) - S1w Daieisho (6-3)
S1e Wakamotoharu (2-7) - M6e Takayasu (6-3)
M14w Kinbozan (9-0) - O2w Onosato (6-3)
M5w Chiyoshoma (8-1) - O1w Hoshoryu (6-3)

Are they trying to do this makushita style so that they can at least end up with a 12-3 yusho?

[Koorifuu 994]

I might have to change my faux king profile picture to Onosato after what he just did to Gonoyama's second matta.

[Hankegami 537]

Good Day 10, everyone! After the recent madness at the top, we appear to have gained a day of normalcy finally.

In the general disbelief, the ones that would be normally expected to win, huh, won. Let's start with the arasoi. Sole leader Kinbozan took today his first loss by the hands of classical Abi, who pulled the same stunt he used against Hoshoryu in Kyushu. Nodo-wa, pull, and down went the King. This loss puts him at arm's reach of the front-runner group (all Maegashira, of course). Chiyoshoma failed to take a share of the lead by losing a surprisingly no-belt match against Kirishima (who is suddenly in third position two losses behind the leader - not bad, after his 0-3 start). He now has to stay second alongside a still surprising Oho (won against what continues to appear a fading Tamawashi) and Takerufuji (who HNH poor Ichiyamamoto). Aside from Oho, who had already did his share as part of the joy, the lower Maegashira will go through a second day of Yusho-worthy test. For tomorrow, the shimpan committee proposes Takerufuji vs. Daieisho, Kinbozan vs. Onosato, and Chiyoshoma vs. Hoshoryu. Oho is somewhat surprisingly kept by the sidelines instead of being paired with some of his direct rivals for the Cup. Tomorrow he's set to face Onokatsu from down the banzuke, who is doing good but not awesomely.

Also, the san'yaku played the san'yaku today. Both Komusubi won, Abi by slaying the tournament leader, and Wakatakakage taking down the troublesome Tobizaru. His endangered brother Sekiwake Wakamotoharu also won, taking some breath by beating Ura. The other Sekiwake Daieisho couldn't join the party, because the Ozeki themselves partied today. (Former?) tsunatori Hoshoryu slayed Daieisho the slayer himself, putting himself two losses behind Kinbozan in the process. Same did Onosato, who actually lucked out in his bout against Gonoyama. He was clearly fearing the other's forwarding power (Onosato of all people!) so he first tried a henka (matta, sorry man) and then managed to win by hatakikomi. Not really impressive, but a win is a win. Definitively former tsunatori Kotozakura instead won convincingly for a change, much jeeting out an ephemeral Hiradoumi.

The pairings for tomorrow (the Ozeki taking up the Yusho contenders) also cause some changes in the foreseeable program. Oho is not involved at the moment, but I think he will enter the fray in the following days as the Ozeki will have to face at least part of the upper joy.

[Naganoyama 5,911]

When people mention that Kirishima started 0-3, they should perhaps bear in mind that he lost to the yokozuna and two ozeki.